[zippycar]

Cant see that this has been posted elsewhere?

Obvious query, why wasn't it made public 18 months ago?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7WGC1iXS_U&list=UUiWQ5eQPkw2BX2L4jeHKEVQ&index=49

 

[extremeride22]

Cant see that this has been posted elsewhere?

Obvious query, why wasn't it made public 18 months ago?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7WGC1iXS_U&list=UUiWQ5eQPkw2BX2L4jeHKEVQ&index=49

I can't say if it's been posted before on Mac Life, admittedly its always nice to watch a video with a MP4 doing its thing on the ring. It was a pleasure to watch zippycar especially that beautiful white car, okay and that other colour?, thanks for posting. Cheers....??

 

[Champagne612]

Great video and curious how the updates would effect lap time - 2 seconds?

 

[extremeride22]

Great video and curious how the updates would effect lap time - 2 seconds?

Can you imagine if they changed the driver. LOL?

 

[Champagne612]

Can you imagine if they changed the driver. LOL?

haha

But he says " I know the car"

 

[extremeride22]

haha

But he says " I know the car"

I'd like to know if all those times posted where performed by the exact same driver, if so then I retract my remark. Cheers.....??

 

[Wtdoom]

That driver is Horst Von Saurna , he does all the supertests for sport auto and few of us here would see which way he went on the ring if he were driving with one hand . " lol " .
Widely recognised as the most standardised ring times ( if there ever can be such a thing ).
gents FYI all the other cars on the list would have been driven by him to as they were SA times .

Also zippycar these were widely published in europe .
Very respectable time even if 4 seconds slower than the gt2rs .

 

[Wtdoom]

I'd like to know if all those times posted where performed by the exact same driver, if so then I retract my remark. Cheers.....����

yes extremeride they are .
sport auto is one of the leading german mags . they conduct something called a supertest . a portion of this involves a timed ring attack , they note temps and conditions and horst does all the driving . its pretty well respected in europe .

 

[Wtdoom]

Very familiar with Sauma - but in the video the rain was involved and he was just getting to know the car vs a porsche and other mfg's that he is far more familiar with.

It's respectable but IMO the Mac could do far better - Pirelli's in the rain are ... interesting.

incorrect
they did a full sport auto test the results are on www for all to see .
that video was a mclaren promo video and the clips shown are not all from the test or even of the same driver , obviously mclaren are happy with the time as they promoted it . this is old news and an old video , the test conditions were dry .
here are the details fyi :

car : mp4 12c
time : 7m 28 seconds
conditions : normal
tyres : p zero corsa

fwiw imo the time is good when you see its 10 seconds (!) faster than the 458 . not so good when you see its about the same as a cgt on 10 year old technology rubber .

 

[extremeride22]

yes extremeride they are .
sport auto is one of the leading german mags . they conduct something called a supertest . a portion of this involves a timed ring attack , they note temps and conditions and horst does all the driving . its pretty well respected in europe .

So Wtdoom do they try and perform these timed laps in the exact same conditions, which is highly improbable. As for the tires used, do they just stick with what the manufacturer puts on the car, or do they try and maintain some sort of consistency concerning traction by using the exact same type of tire. Sorry for these dumb questions, I'm curious about how they try and come up with parameters that are fair yet concise. Cheers.....??

 

[Wtdoom]

So Wtdoom do they try and perform these timed laps in the exact same conditions, which is highly improbable. As for the tires used, do they just stick with what the manufacturer puts on the car, or do they try and maintain some sort of consistency concerning traction by using the exact same type of tire. Sorry for these dumb questions, I'm curious about how they try and come up with parameters that are fair yet concise. Cheers.....����

exact same conditions are virtually impossible as you know . the conditions are usually normal , wet etc etc and are stated in the test . the tyres used in the test are the tyres the car is supplied with , not dumb questions at all only happy to help .it is not an exact science but it is the same as on every race track around the world to an extent . Most manufacturers ( like porsche and mclaren ) claim their tyres are optimised for the vehicle so if they changed them fans would say " they changed from the recommended tyres " so I can see why they leave that well alone .
The sport auto test is widely recognised as the fairest , most impartial of the Nordschleife test times .
I like the fact they use the same driver in similar conditions , it at least is a lot more comparable than unverifiable manufacturer claims imho . like i said 10 seconds faster than a 458 italia , is serious going and very contrary to what ferrari will tell you about lap times .
It is tests like sport autos that help bring such shenanigans to light

 

[extremeride22]

exact same conditions are virtually impossible as you know . the conditions are usually normal , wet etc etc and are stated in the test . the tyres used in the test are the tyres the car is supplied with , not dumb questions at all only happy to help .it is not an exact science but it is the same as on every race track around the world to an extent . Most manufacturers ( like porsche and mclaren ) claim their tyres are optimised for the vehicle so if they changed them fans would say " they changed from the recommended tyres " so I can see why they leave that well alone .
The sport auto test is widely recognised as the fairest , most impartial of the Nordschleife test times .
I like the fact they use the same driver in similar conditions , it at least is a lot more comparable than unverifiable manufacturer claims imho . like i said 10 seconds faster than a 458 italia , is serious going and very contrary to what ferrari will tell you about lap times .
It is tests like sport autos that help bring such shenanigans to light

Thanks for that Wtdoom greatly appreciated and feel the same way, I love it when things are done fair and square or on a even keel and without bias. Cheers....??

 

[McDc]

I could write several pages about the Supertest and all those nasty little stories and rumours behind it but as wtdoom said, it's at least some kind of an indicator, in fact the best we have, to what a car can achieve on the Nordschleife, but not much more.

It's about money and reputation so manufacturers are playing their games, big time, even in the Supertest.

Having witnessed part of the 458 supertest at the Ring, I can tell you there is A LOT going on behind the scenes. Especially with tires and setup. And of course with the engine boost on non n/a engines.

Regarding the laptime of the 12C, I think it could go quite a bit faster with a driver more familiar with the car. As we all know, the 12C needs some time to get used to and explore its full potential. But then this is the case for all cars in the Supertest. All cars ? Not quite.HvS is a well known Porsche affinado and has A LOT more seat time in 911's of all variations than in e.g. a 12C. That alone is good for another few seconds.

Also, even if so called "specially developed for the MP4-12C", those corsa tires are simply playing in a whole league below the one of a Michelin PS Cup or Pirelli Trofeo R.

Taking all this into account, the 12C is certainly on-par with the GT2 RS and should even be a tiny bit faster on better tires and platform 10.x.

 

[Champagne612]

incorrect
they did a full sport auto test the results are on www for all to see .
that video was a mclaren promo video and the clips shown are not all from the test or even of the same driver , obviously mclaren are happy with the time as they promoted it . this is old news and an old video , the test conditions were dry .
here are the details fyi :

car : mp4 12c
time : 7m 28 seconds
conditions : normal
tyres : p zero corsa

fwiw imo the time is good when you see its 10 seconds (!) faster than the 458 . not so good when you see its about the same as a cgt on 10 year old technology rubber .

I deleted the post as you caught just a portion.

Being new here didn't want to flat out discredit the times and drivers PR debacle.

These times are a big deal to owners and potential buyers.

Mclaren had no idea what they were getting into when they did the majority of their PR.

Being naive is off Mclarens check list!

7:28 ... my guess is closer to 7:24

 

[Wtdoom]

This is a sad thing thing with owners blinded to a particular marque .
No test is independent enough , no driver is good enough , no other car can be as fast , and they instinctively know the actual times the car can do better than the factory , the independent testers , the myriad of owners that have driven the cars etc etc etc .
Luckily I don't suffer from this and am old/ experienced enough to appreciate a car for what it is . 728 is no shame at all for a car with this breadth of abilities ( its 10 seconds faster than the 458 by the same driver , in similar conditions , on the same track with similar time spent in the cars ) but I guess some owners won't be happy unless the car beats bellofs overall lap record at the ring and the f1 record at spa .
The time is around 728 ( however many excuses you invent the fans of the other cars can create as many ) there are a couple of faster cars but most are slower , enjoy your cars and move on gents

 

[widowmaker911]

I deleted the post as you caught just a portion.

Being new here didn't want to flat out discredit the times and drivers <acronym title="Google Page Ranking">PR</acronym> debacle.

These times are a big deal to owners and potential buyers.

Mclaren had no idea what they were getting into when they did the majority of their <acronym title="Google Page Ranking">PR</acronym>.

Being naive is off Mclarens check list!

7:28 ... my guess is closer to 7:24

12C should at least be able to achieve GT2 RS lap time with all the tech it has

 

[McDc]

This is a sad thing thing with owners blinded to a particular marque .
No test is independent enough , no driver is good enough , no other car can be as fast , and they instinctively know the actual times the car can do better than the factory , the independent testers , the myriad of owners that have driven the cars etc etc etc .
Luckily I don't suffer from this and am old/ experienced enough to appreciate a car for what it is . 728 is no shame at all for a car with this breadth of abilities ( its 10 seconds faster than the 458 by the same driver , in similar conditions , on the same track with similar time spent in the cars ) but I guess some owners won't be happy unless the car beats bellofs overall lap record at the ring and the f1 record at spa .
The time is around 728 ( however many excuses you invent the fans of the other cars can create as many ) there are a couple of faster cars but most are slower , enjoy your cars and move on gents

Very but not entirely true.

I'm not blinded to this marque.

Even some of the open hearted tech people at McLaren do admit, that it was a mistake to hand over a pre-production version of the 12C to HvC for the Supertest. McLaren simply passed the unique chance for a better lap time. As you are referring to the 458, this was certainly not the case with the F-car. I have seen with my own eyes what amount of special equipment and stuff from italy was involved in that specific test.

Also, never forget, that there is a very long and strong relationship between SportAuto/HvS and Porsche. They both will always try hard to keep the P-cars on top of their respective competitors.

Free journalism is a tale as we all know

 

[Wtdoom]

Very but not entirely true.

I'm not blinded to this marque.

Even some of the open hearted tech people at McLaren do admit, that it was a mistake to hand over a pre-production version of the 12C to HvC for the Supertest. McLaren simply passed the unique chance for a better lap time. As you are referring to the 458, this was certainly not the case with the F-car. I have seen with my own eyes what amount of special equipment and stuff from italy was involved in that specific test.

Also, never forget, that there is a very long and strong relationship between SportAuto/HvS and Porsche. They both will always try hard to keep the P-cars on top of their respective competitors.

Free journalism is a tale as we all know

You know I could throw at least as many counter points back at you but fear it is a lost cause as you have all made up your minds that poor mclaren know nothing about pr ( what a joke ) , would not prep their cars or use decent tyres etc etc

At the end of the day I'm not even sure what you are all so upset about ? Its one of the fastest cars ever tested .
Is it the fact that the gt2 rs is faster on a track ? The arrogance to think porsche , ferrari etc who have been honing cars on track for decades would all just be annihilated by mclarens first serial production car . Personally im very proud of the fact that my 12c is 10 seconds faster than a 458 and can still be so much more comfortable than a 2rs and nearly as fast and this is the first attempt ! If its as simple as that I can tell you , you bought the wrong car . I chose a 12c over a 458 and a 2 rs ( have enough Porsches tbh and the turbo 911s do not excite me ) but I have spent serious time in both on track . The 2rs is faster on every track I tried them on ( silver stone , ring , spa ) sorry if this ends with several 12 c owners committing a ritual suicide at hearing this news , as a fellow 12c owner this was not my intention .

 

[McDc]

You know I could throw at least as many counter points back at you but fear it is a lost cause as you have all made up your minds that poor mclaren know nothing about <acronym title="Google Page Ranking"><acronym title="Google Page Ranking">pr</acronym></acronym> ( what a joke ) , would not prep their cars or use decent tyres etc etc

At the end of the day I'm not even sure what you are all so upset about ? Its one of the fastest cars ever tested .
Is it the fact that the gt2 rs is faster on a track ? The arrogance to think porsche , ferrari etc who have been honing cars on track for decades would all just be annihilated by mclarens first serial production car . Personally im very proud of the fact that my 12c is 10 seconds faster than a 458 and can still be so much more comfortable than a 2rs and nearly as fast and this is the first attempt ! If its as simple as that I can tell you , you bought the wrong car . I chose a 12c over a 458 and a 2 rs ( have enough Porsches tbh and the turbo 911s do not excite me ) but I have spent serious time in both on track . The 2rs is faster on every track I tried them on ( silver stone , ring , spa ) sorry if this ends with several 12 c owners committing a ritual suicide at hearing this news , as a fellow 12c owner this was not my intention .

I'm not upset. Very happy with 7:28

I just chimed in to explain some of the little details about the Supertest some people might not yet know. As you said, the Supertest is no science and I just added that a lot is going on behind the scenes.

Since you said you have been faster in the GT2 RS than the 12C at the Ring, you certainly have measured lap times (or BTG), or was it just a "feeling" ? If not, what were your lap times at the Ring in each of the two cars ? And on what tires ?

 

[Champagne612]

12C should at least be able to achieve GT2 RS lap time with all the tech it has

I am assuming you own a GT2 widowmaker ... semi slicks aren't the same as Pirelli stock

There is a video taken at Circuit of America's with a GT2 - was that you?

Wtdoom - not upset / disappointed or anything like.

Top gears track times were more than enough for me.

That being said - the Ring is the ultimate bragging rights and regardless of what anyone states times are a big deal to even yourself as you mention the 458 comparison.

We all know the games being played - point is where would the Mac sit with it's new / standard updates ... 7:24 is my guess.

That's all