Formula 1, 2019 - Page 55 - McLaren Life
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post #811 of 861 Old 06-12-2019, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by eMcL View Post
Well if “Vettel gained by blocking Hamilton” which was as a direct result of leaving and re-entering the track at a slower speed causing Hamilton to brake. Then yes Vettel ‘gained’ and should forfeit position. The telemetry enables a determination to be made.
Scenario:
Vettel has 90 seconds' lead in front of Hamilton, loses control, goes off track, hits barrier that breaks his front wing but is able to make it back to the pits.
New wing is put on Vettel's car, he exits pits and rejoins track just as Hamilton is catching up. As Hamilton is nearly even with him, Vettel lets his car run wide blocking Hamilton. Hamilton brakes, there is no contact. Vettel goes on to win race by 1 second.

So in my example: "Vettel gained by blocking Hamilton which was as a direct result of leaving and re-entering the track at a slower speed causing Hamilton to brake". Should Vettel therefore be penalised?

At a certain point, both in Montreal and in my scenario, Vettel was allowed to resume racing!
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post #812 of 861 Old 06-12-2019, 08:51 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
Scenario:
Vettel has 90 seconds' lead in front of Hamilton, loses control, goes off track, hits barrier that breaks his front wing but is able to make it back to the pits.
New wing is put on Vettel's car, he exits pits and rejoins track just as Hamilton is catching up. As Hamilton is nearly even with him, Vettel lets his car run wide blocking Hamilton. Hamilton brakes, there is no contact. Vettel goes on to win race by 1 second.

So in my example: "Vettel gained by blocking Hamilton which was as a direct result of leaving and re-entering the track at a slower speed causing Hamilton to brake". Should Vettel therefore be penalised?

At a certain point, both in Montreal and in my scenario, Vettel was allowed to resume racing!

Yes I don’t agree with your separation/partioning of the events. My view is that this is a contiguous event that starts with a departure from the track and ends with blocking of a competitor who stayed on track at speed on the racing line.

We agree that the penalty was too severe.
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post #813 of 861 Old 06-12-2019, 09:09 PM
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John, it seems that you are starting from your conclusion (Vettel wronged your favourite driver Hamilton) and are then sculpting the meanings of words ("normally", "innocent", "responsible") to support your conclusion.
In the context under discussion, the accepted meanings are roughly:

"Normally" - How stewards most often treat an instance in which a driver makes a mistake that compromises his own race but no harm is done to another driver, or no other driver is put at unacceptable risk; hence the normative term "racing incident".
"Innocent" - When, regardless of the outcome, an action appears to have been undertaken with motives that are within the sport's accepted boundaries.
"Responsible" - That which had an effect. Something that had an effect, even a negative effect, does not necessarily entail a penalty. Whether it entails a penalty depends on norms and motives.

No one is disputing whether Vettel did what he did. The question for the stewards was whether what he did consciously was sufficiently unsporting or did unconsciously was sufficiently incompetent to warrant a penalty. You think it was, I think it wasn't. The stewards agree with your conclusion; Formula One drivers agree with mine.
I wouldn't have guessed you'd be one to hinge your argument on an appeal to authority or to a popular vote. Arguments should be made on their merits, not how many people agree or disagree or how many experts share your opinion. Nor should they be based on talking in circles which we seem to be doing here Sometimes talking in circles can be fun though, especially when it involves F1.

Remember though, there are many drivers that agree with the penalty; Lewis, Nice Rosberg, Joylon Palmer and of course the race steward. Not that it bolsters my argument that drivers are responsible for the car the pilot and what happens while driving it but it is interesting to note that the stewards decision was an unanimous one.
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post #814 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 01:40 AM
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I wouldn't have guessed you'd be one to hinge your argument on an appeal to authority or to a popular vote. Arguments should be made on their merits, not how many people agree or disagree or how many experts share your opinion.
Highly dependent on what subject is being discussed.
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post #815 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 10:34 AM
 
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I may have overlooked something, but among Formula One drivers the opinions are:

Yes, Vettel should have been penalised

Jolyon Palmer
Mercedes Benz employee Nico Rosberg


No, Vettel should not have been penalised

Mario Andretti
Martin Brundle
Jenson Button
Karun Chandhok
Max Chilton
Damon Hill
Johnny Herbert
Nigel Mansell
Allan McNish
Giedo van der Garde
Jacques Villeneuve
Mark Webber
Alex Wurz


Is there a pattern here...?
NB I get where you are trying to come from. But ask any professional sports player, be it basketball, soccer, football etc if they think refs calls were on point especially in playoffs etc, and you will get a similar ratio as you quoted above. Its the nature of human beings to go against a disciplinary action, even when they are at fault. Not rocket science.

Me, Ill take facts over feelings every time. The assorted video angles the stewards were able to get clearly showed Vettel, upon regaining control, chose to check his mirrors for Hamilton's chosen path and then proceeded to let the car continue into his racing line to block him. What he said and what the video showed were two very different things. He said he didn't know where Hamilton was etc. Video showed different. He got caught lying period. Hard to get away with things these days. He did what he did. Take it like a man and move on. He should learn from it and become better, so he doesn't have to resort to cheap tactics.

I think he got off easy. The stewards ruling clearly allowed Vettel room to still win the right way, despite his deliberate move. He just had to actually be better than Hamilton's by 5 seconds. If you remove feelings and look at the facts I can't see how anyone can find fault with the stewards ruling. He could have gotten a drive through which would have killed him in points.
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post #816 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 01:53 PM
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NB I get where you are trying to come from. But ask any professional sports player, be it basketball, soccer, football etc if they think refs calls were on point especially in playoffs etc, and you will get a similar ratio as you quoted above. Its the nature of human beings to go against a disciplinary action, even when they are at fault. Not rocket science.

Me, Ill take facts over feelings every time. The assorted video angles the stewards were able to get clearly showed Vettel, upon regaining control, chose to check his mirrors for Hamilton's chosen path and then proceeded to let the car continue into his racing line to block him. What he said and what the video showed were two very different things. He said he didn't know where Hamilton was etc. Video showed different. He got caught lying period. Hard to get away with things these days. He did what he did. Take it like a man and move on. He should learn from it and become better, so he doesn't have to resort to cheap tactics.
I'm not quite sure where you're coming from when you say, "He said he didn't know where Hamilton was....He got caught lying period."

During the race when he was informed of the penalty, Vettel said over the recorded radio, "I had nowhere to go. Seriously, I had nowhere to go. I did see him."
After the race when he was interviewed, Vettel said, "Then I was coming back on track and just trying to make sure I have the car under control. Once I regained control, made sure it was sort-of all right, I looked in the mirrors, and saw Lewis right behind me."

When did Vettel say that he "didn't know where Hamilton was"?
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post #817 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
I'm not quite sure where you're coming from when you say, "He said he didn't know where Hamilton was....He got caught lying period."

During the race when he was informed of the penalty, Vettel said over the recorded radio, "I had nowhere to go. Seriously, I had nowhere to go. I did see him."
After the race when he was interviewed, Vettel said, "Then I was coming back on track and just trying to make sure I have the car under control. Once I regained control, made sure it was sort-of all right, I looked in the mirrors, and saw Lewis right behind me."
Vettel said that he was lucky not to hit the wall, i.e. he was out of control all the way across the track and could not have avoided impeding Hamilton. That's not what the evidence shows.
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post #818 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 02:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
I'm not quite sure where you're coming from when you say, "He said he didn't know where Hamilton was....He got caught lying period."

During the race when he was informed of the penalty, Vettel said over the recorded radio, "I had nowhere to go. Seriously, I had nowhere to go. I did see him."
After the race when he was interviewed, Vettel said, "Then I was coming back on track and just trying to make sure I have the car under control. Once I regained control, made sure it was sort-of all right, I looked in the mirrors, and saw Lewis right behind me."

When did Vettel say that he "didn't know where Hamilton was"?
Vettel sees what he wants to see (Baku should have convinced you ). He implied that he didn’t regain control until he was on the racing line with Hamilton directly behind him — the telemetry tells what happened, Vettel regained control after some short rear wheel spin traction loss on the inside edge of the track, way off the racing line, and then moved under control to block/push Hamilton off the track.

If you look at the ‘incident’ from a drivers perspective, ie imagine yourself in Vettel’s seat, with a clear objective of getting to the checkered flag in first position, then you empathize with Vettel and know that you would do the same as he did. And as a driver you may also empathize with Hamilton’s plight and making a vocal complaint, “he pushed me off the track!” — but you might also feel, well OK that’s racing I got baulked, get it together Hamilton and try for the win.

Now if you imagine you have the job of steward, then the drivers perspective is not any of your concern, nor should you have/allow any drivers preference influence your decision making. Your concern is, what the rules say, and what rules apply to this ‘incident’. And that is what we got.


Ferrari drops appeal
So now it moves onto rule change proposals I guess …. and the wheel turns
https://f1i.com/news/344413-ferrari-...ew-option.html
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post #819 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
 
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Proof Verstappen follows NB …. McLarenlife rules


-----------------
Max Verstappen says Formula 1 needs a dictator to sort rules out properly, because there is too much self-interest from teams.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/v...power/4473456/
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post #820 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rnixon View Post
Vettel said that he was lucky not to hit the wall, i.e. he was out of control all the way across the track and could not have avoided impeding Hamilton. That's not what the evidence shows.
I'm not as confident as you seem to be that the phrase "I was lucky not to hit the wall", as spoken by someone in his second language when he was in a very agitated state, is dispositive of anything.

How does one define "lucky"? Was Vettel lucky "because he counter-steered intuitively after flying off the kerb"; "because the car had not left the grass a few mph faster"; "because the tyres were not 10 laps older"; "because the exit-left of the chicane was not any tighter than it is"? There are many reasonable interpretations of "lucky not to hit the wall" that do not mean "out of control all the way across the track". Beyond that, should one's opinion of the validity of the stewards' ruling be formed by imputing a deep, unforgivable meaning to a simple sentence expressed in haste?

In the post-race interview a few minutes later, after he had calmed down, Vettel quite clearly stated that he had regained control of the car as Hamilton approached him. I am afraid I can't see any attempt to deceive or meaningful inconsistency.
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post #821 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 03:28 PM
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I'm not as confident as you seem to be that the phrase "I was lucky not to hit the wall", as spoken by someone in his second language when he was in a very agitated state, is dispositive of anything.
I lived in France for 4 years and spoke French fluently. I studied German a little at school. I simply cannot see it being a mistake - Vettel's English is good and the concepts between the languages would not account for it.

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In the post-race interview a few minutes later, after he had calmed down, Vettel quite clearly stated that he had regained control of the car as Hamilton approached him. I am afraid I can't see any attempt to deceive or meaningful inconsistency.
I'm just stating the evidence. It's entirely possible (IMO) that he didn't recall all the details and got it wrong - eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable.
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post #822 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by eMcL View Post
Vettel sees what he wants to see (Baku should have convinced you ). He implied that he didn’t regain control until he was on the racing line with Hamilton directly behind him — the telemetry tells what happened, Vettel regained control after some short rear wheel spin traction loss on the inside edge of the track, way off the racing line, and then moved under control to block/push Hamilton off the track.

If you look at the ‘incident’ from a drivers perspective, ie imagine yourself in Vettel’s seat, with a clear objective of getting to the checkered flag in first position, then you empathize with Vettel and know that you would do the same as he did. And as a driver you may also empathize with Hamilton’s plight and making a vocal complaint, “he pushed me off the track!” — but you might also feel, well OK that’s racing I got baulked, get it together Hamilton and try for the win.

Now if you imagine you have the job of steward, then the drivers perspective is not any of your concern, nor should you have/allow any drivers preference influence your decision making. Your concern is, what the rules say, and what rules apply to this ‘incident’. And that is what we got.

Ferrari drops appeal
So now it moves onto rule change proposals I guess …. and the wheel turns
https://f1i.com/news/344413-ferrari-...ew-option.html
Believe me, I am not and have never been a fan of Vettel's. At the same time, I dislike BS, political correctness, illogic and sophistry, and in this case we had them - hence my objection.
I must disagree that the driver's perspective is not the stewards' concern. The driver's perspective is a vital concern, which is why they have a professional driver among the stewards. That does not mean that the professional steward is always right, that he always interprets the rules correctly or that he always employs impeccable reasoning in forming opinions, but there is recognition that it is impossible to assess racing actions and especially to assign blame without a proper understanding of what the driver was and was not capable of doing at a given moment.

No surprise that Ferrari dropped the appeal. Like all governing bodies, the FIA are loath to reverse the judgment calls of their officials, and it was always doubtful that the stewards' in-race ruling would be subject to appeal anyhow.
I was about to write that, if Max von Mosley were still running the show, I'm sure that the Ferrari appeal would have been heard and won. Before typing that, however, I realised that, if von Mosley were still dictator, Ferrari and Vettel would never have been penalised in the first place, and I'd much rather have a few mistaken rulings than have that prick back again. Ugh.


Yes, now as to that cost-cap....
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post #823 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
 
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…..
Yes, now as to that cost-cap....
Never thought of you as Vettel or Ferrari fan — but Hamilton hater crossed my mind. But seriously did not think that your comments had anything to do with the drivers.


Are you suggesting a BOP character cap on McLarenlife postings (140 twit characters) coupled with a limit of no more than 6 postings on a subject? ie handicap the writer posters to narrow the gap, Hmmm appealing as that may be I think it would not change the result much ……
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post #824 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 03:54 PM
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I lived in France for 4 years and spoke French fluently. I studied German a little at school. I simply cannot see it being a mistake - Vettel's English is good and the concepts between the languages would not account for it.


I'm just stating the evidence. It's entirely possible (IMO) that he didn't recall all the details and got it wrong - eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable.
That's fine. I'm just saying that I cannot see why that quote from Vettel should be inculpatory or lead to any particular conclusion. It was a spontaneous remark from an upset guy and didn't mean much of anything. Surely it should not be the basis for a penalty that cost someone a GP win.
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post #825 of 861 Old 06-13-2019, 04:15 PM
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Never thought of you as Vettel or Ferrari fan — but Hamilton hater crossed my mind. But seriously did not think that your comments had anything to do with the drivers.
There's no denying that Hamilton's talent and performances are up there with the best. I have had a negative attitude towards him since he (supposedly) gave his word to Martin Whitmarsh a few days before the 2012 Singapore GP that he would sign a new contract with McLaren the following week, but then after speaking with Niki Lauda in Singapore over the weekend he informed Whitmarsh on Tuesday that he had changed his mind and signed with the Germans. As you know, I also don't like the phenomenon of buying championships, which inclines me away from Mercedes. Even when McLaren had one of the biggest budgets I was in favour of the cost-cap, as I thought they should earn rather than buy their success, and I have not changed that view now that two/three others are outspending the rest.
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Are you suggesting a BOP character cap on McLarenlife postings (140 twit characters) coupled with a limit of no more than 6 postings on a subject? ie handicap the writer posters to narrow the gap, Hmmm appealing as that may be I think it would not change the result much ……
I'd be in favour of that rule if it were accompanied by the installation of a ruthless dictator who disallowed unworthy posts.
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