Formula 1, 2019 - Page 53 - McLaren Life
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post #781 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 02:28 PM
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That was dumbest application of a regulation I've ever seen in racing. Fully expected the standard "stewards have determined it was a racing incident" blah blah, carry on. Instead they eff up probably the single highlight of the season, two best drivers on the grid battling to the wire. Seriously what the actual Fck. Wasted my whole Sunday afternoon on that shite. Screw you F1!!

Hammy was never in danger. See a car losing it in front of you, you can always let off...

Screw you F1!!
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post #782 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by 6th element View Post
That was dumbest application of a regulation I've ever seen in racing. Fully expected the standard "stewards have determined it was a racing incident" blah blah, carry on. Instead they eff up probably the single highlight of the season, two best drivers on the grid battling to the wire. Seriously what the actual Fck. Wasted my whole Sunday afternoon on that shite. Screw you F1!!

Hammy was never in danger. See a car losing it in front of you, you can always let off...

Screw you F1!!
Yes disappointing. Vettel seems to have had many small errors/bad luck so far this season. We expected this to be the turnaround race for Ferrari — but once again another burble driving mistake has resulted in points lost. And an increase in the gap between Ferrari and Mercedes in the WCC and WDC. Not good for F1 fans and particularly for Ferrari fans.


2019 Constructor Standings
POS TEAM PTS
1 MERCEDES 295
2 FERRARI 172
3 RED BULL RACING HONDA 124
4 MCLAREN RENAULT 30
5 RENAULT 28
6 RACING POINT BWT MERCEDES 19
7 SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO HONDA 17
8 HAAS FERRARI 16
9 ALFA ROMEO RACING FERRARI 13
10 WILLIAMS MERCEDES 0

POS DRIVER CAR PTS
1 Lewis Hamilton MERCEDES 162
2 Valtteri Bottas MERCEDES 133
3 Sebastian Vettel FERRARI 100
4 Max Verstappen RED BULL RACING HONDA 88
5 Charles Leclerc FERRARI 72
6 Pierre Gasly RED BULL RACING HONDA 36
7 Carlos Sainz MCLAREN RENAULT 18
8 Daniel Ricciardo RENAULT 16
9 Kevin Magnussen HAAS FERRARI 14
10 Sergio Perez RACING POINT BWT MERCEDES 13
11 Kimi Räikkönen ALFA ROMEO RACING FERRARI 13
12 Lando Norris MCLAREN RENAULT 12
13 Nico Hulkenberg RENAULT 12
14 Daniil Kvyat SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO HONDA 10
15 Alexander Albon SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO HONDA 7
16 Lance Stroll RACING POINT BWT MERCEDES 6
17 Romain Grosjean HAAS FERRARI 2
18 Antonio Giovinazzi ALFA ROMEO RACING FERRARI 0
19 George Russell WILLIAMS MERCEDES 0
20 Robert Kubica WILLIAMS MERCEDES 0
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post #783 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 03:37 PM
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I don't particularly give a toss about Vettel. Or Ferrari, or Merc. I just wanted to see a good race. It's like watching a Super Bowl between two awesome teams and the referees fck up the enjoyment for everyone because they can't keep their grubby little hands out of it.

Would have been hilarious to see that go down at Monza though.
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post #784 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by eMcL View Post
Yes disappointing. Vettel seems to have had many small errors/bad luck so far this season. We expected this to be the turnaround race for Ferrari — but once again another burble driving mistake has resulted in points lost. And an increase in the gap between Ferrari and Mercedes in the WCC and WDC. Not good for F1 fans and particularly for Ferrari fans.
Oh cmon. You know as well as I do and everyone else the season as a contest is over and has long been over. Merc and Hamilton are certain to win. The only thing that possibly is a doubt is whether Merc can outdo Mclaren's 1988 record of wins in a season.....
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post #785 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 05:38 PM Thread Starter
 
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Oh cmon. You know as well as I do and everyone else the season as a contest is over and has long been over. Merc and Hamilton are certain to win. The only thing that possibly is a doubt is whether Merc can outdo Mclaren's 1988 record of wins in a season.....
Yes. But at this point I’m a bit shaken in my prior belief that Vettel in a Mercedes seat would do better than he has done in a Ferrari seat …..
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post #786 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 05:48 PM
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Yes. But at this point I’m a bit shaken in my prior belief that Vettel in a Mercedes seat would do better than he has done in a Ferrari seat …..
It's conjecture of course but I don't see why there's anything wrong with that belief. vettel/ferrari are imo under a huge amount of pressure because they know any mistakes at all and Merc will clean up. And that's when they actually have a chance in the first place. Pressure does funny things to people sometimes. Vettel in a dominant car at RB was very very good. Hamilton looks the same now especially as since Rosberg his team mate is unable to put any amount of serious pressure on him. Even the last 2 seasons Merc had at times (and god knows why given as a season they were still streets ahead) looked rattled the very rare occasion when Ferrari or RB proved faster on a weekend.
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post #787 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Snakebitten View Post
Too much debating. Bottom line Vettel got caught deliberately trying to block Hamilton after his initial mistake.

To me to knock Hamilton for taking the line he did instead of braking and trying to pass on the left is silly. While some try to excuse Vettel because he had momentary loss of control and could not predict where the car would move on the grass, then how can you knock Hamilton for making the safest choice of taking the racing line? It’s a split second decision and I think he made the right call.

Since the video evidence clearly shows Vettel intentionally looked in his mirror to see where Hamilton was after he was back in control and then intentionally allowed the car to go into the racing line, shows that it didn’t matter what side Lewis took. Vettel was going to make that car block Lewis no matter which line he took. Great penalty. It should have been worst penalty like a drive through. that bad minded display that he tried to pass off as loss of control is disturbing. Someone’s life is not worth 1st place.
I may have overlooked something, but among Formula One drivers the opinions are:

Yes, Vettel should have been penalised

Jolyon Palmer
Mercedes Benz employee Nico Rosberg


No, Vettel should not have been penalised

Mario Andretti
Martin Brundle
Jenson Button
Karun Chandhok
Max Chilton
Damon Hill
Johnny Herbert
Nigel Mansell
Allan McNish
Giedo van der Garde
Jacques Villeneuve
Mark Webber
Alex Wurz


Is there a pattern here...?
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post #788 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
I may have overlooked something, but among Formula One drivers the opinions are:

Yes, Vettel should have been penalised

Jolyon Palmer
Mercedes Benz employee Nico Rosberg


No, Vettel should not have been penalised

Mario Andretti
Martin Brundle
Jenson Button
Karun Chandhok
Max Chilton
Damon Hill
Johnny Herbert
Nigel Mansell
Allan McNish
Giedo van der Garde
Jacques Villeneuve
Mark Webber
Alex Wurz


Is there a pattern here...?
Do you have Wurz in the wrong column?
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/39101...l-penalty.html
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post #789 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 06:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
I may have overlooked something, but among Formula One drivers the opinions are:

Yes, Vettel should have been penalised

Jolyon Palmer
Mercedes Benz employee Nico Rosberg


No, Vettel should not have been penalised

Mario Andretti
Martin Brundle
Jenson Button
Karun Chandhok
Max Chilton
Damon Hill
Johnny Herbert
Nigel Mansell
Allan McNish
Giedo van der Garde
Jacques Villeneuve
Mark Webber
Alex Wurz


Is there a pattern here...?
Many competitive racers don't think that he should have been awarded a 5s penalty. That says nothing about whether the rules were correctly applied though.

Should he have been if he hit Hamilton, i.e. if Hamilton hadn't seen him and taken avoiding action?

Last edited by rnixon; 06-11-2019 at 06:49 PM.
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post #790 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 06:48 PM
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I thought Vettel’s penalty was harsh at the time (and I am no fan of Vettel or Ferrari) and, after reading all the views on here, I have not changed my opinion.

Not that my opinion matters, there are people on here that know a lot more about F1 and the rules than I do and people who race who know what is acceptable.

I am a bit surprised that some people think the penalty was right after reading this thread.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the appeal.

He who asks a question looks foolish for 5 minutes. He who doesn't ask a question remains foolish forever.

PS - nothing I say should be taken seriously but I am lucky enough to live in Woking and do get to see a lot of McLarens
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post #791 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 07:36 PM
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Do you have Wurz in the wrong column?
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/39101...l-penalty.html
No, I do not have him in the wrong column. The article that you linked is an incomplete version of what he said on the matter.
The relevant quote from a more complete article is:

Should it be a penalty?

Wurz said that, applying the rules to the letter, he believed it was "50-50" as to whether Vettel had committed an offence.
And he rejected the argument that Vettel committed an offence either way, because he had either rejoined the track dangerously or had deliberately impeded Hamilton.
Wurz said: "That is a really dangerous argument and dangerous direction because it means you are penalising the mistake itself.

"How many times is there a chicane with asphalt run-off and someone goes off and comes back on and nothing happens? So if you start to penalise for that, we are on a PlayStation and going into a direction we should definitely not go.
"Then you have to see in racing if you are close to someone and he has power oversteer and he has to lift and he is perfectly not off the track, or he bottoms out on the kerb, that also makes the guy behind react in having to lift.
"That is racing in my definition, and you are sometimes unlucky when you are behind. So you can't penalise Vettel, in my view.
"Vettel has a certain speed going off into the grass. Of course at a certain point he will put the power back on, because he wants to continue his race. And that's his right to do.
"I don't think he drove in front of Lewis intentionally as aggressive as it might look on TV because his head moves to look in the mirror, after the correction is finished.
"Therefore I would have not seen it as action to be penalised, very much as I would have not penalised Verstappen in Suzuka either.
"However, both cases are very similar and FIA gave the same penalty, so we have to accept that."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48593772
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post #792 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rnixon View Post
Many competitive racers don't think that he should have been awarded a 5s penalty. That says nothing about whether the rules were correctly applied though.

Should he have been if he hit Hamilton, i.e. if Hamilton hadn't seen him and taken avoiding action?
If the details had been exactly the same except that, instead of braking, Hamilton decided to go for it and kept his foot down, crashing into Vettel, then Hamilton should have been penalised.

If the details had differed in that Hamilton was a fraction of a second farther along the track, such that he could not brake in time to avoid Vettel and telemetry showed that Vettel had steered into Hamilton's path causing a crash, then Vettel should have been penalised.
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post #793 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
If the details had been exactly the same except that, instead of braking, Hamilton decided to go for it and kept his foot down, crashing into Vettel, then Hamilton should have been penalised.

If the details had differed in that Hamilton was a fraction of a second farther along the track, such that he could not brake in time to avoid Vettel and telemetry showed that Vettel had steered into Hamilton's path causing a crash, then Vettel should have been penalised.
Yes and IIRC the rules, had Vettel unintentionally skidded out of control across the track and T boned Hamilton neither would be penalized. Am I wrong?

"Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for
an Incident no penalty will be imposed."

Last edited by eMcL; 06-11-2019 at 09:00 PM.
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post #794 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 09:00 PM
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Yes and IIRC the rules, had Vettel unintentionally skidded out of control across the track and T boned Hamilton neither would be penalized. Am I wrong?
Normally true, although, as Hamilton replied about the FIA stewards after he had legitimately won the 2008 Belgian GP and then been told that the stewards were reviewing whether he should be penalised, "But you know them!"
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post #795 of 828 Old 06-11-2019, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
 
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New Britain — so far you have been the winning predictor (from season beginning) of McLaren WCC position. How confident are you now for the upcoming race on Renault home territory?


WCC
4 MCLAREN RENAULT 30
5 RENAULT 28
WDC
7 Carlos Sainz MCLAREN RENAULT 18
8 Daniel Ricciardo RENAULT 16
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