Let’s discuss Tuners... - McLaren Life
 47Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 05:58 PM Thread Starter
 
McBroke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 609
Let’s discuss Tuners...

This may or may not be a very popular post. Especially since I’ve discussed this topic with several tuners... but I’m trying to find out if anyone has talked in-depth to the guys tuning these cars besides myself?

Each and every tuner out there right now actually says they’re the ONLY ones actually tuning these cars, the “other” guys are buying their boxed tune from over the pond. This alleged “tune in a box” was developed by some guy in Europe and most all the guys tuning McLarens just buy that software and tweak it very little. Hence the reason most of these cars makes roughly the same power.

Million dollar question I have regarding tuning a $200-$400k car is this... is it done within the failsafes designed into the car, such as knock sensors, over boost protectors, timing advance issues... whatever so you don’t grenade a $60k motor. I love the idea of going as fast as I can make a car go, but not at the expense of the cars reliability.

Anyone FACTUALLY know if these guys are safely tuning these cars or are they all just crap shooting on someone else’s dime? I guess I mean does anyone actually know the guy tuning the ecu or is it just a trust you establish with said company they’re being honest and not using a generic “box” tune?

Any feedback would be insightful as well as maybe helping others who are on the fence about tuning their cars... absolutely not meant to be a bash fest on any shops or independents who tune or perform work on McLarens as a whole.
McBroke is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 07:36 PM
 
Twinscroll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Arizona
Posts: 250
Everyone, The popcorn line starts here. One bag per
Attached Images
 
DME Tuning likes this.
Twinscroll is offline  
post #3 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 07:42 PM
 
Twinscroll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Arizona
Posts: 250
So if you want reliable. Don't mess with the car. Drive it as is.

AS for that. I have seen Rich at Dynocomp in Az, Tune a few McLarens. Yes there is a software to interface the ECU, But from what I have seen. He is adjusting the maps in the magic box.

This goes for pretty much all tooning. There is a handful of companies that make the tuning interface, Some offer off the shelve maps depending on the automotive brand. And then you have shops that use the interface to toon the car on a dyno.
Cobb is a good example of this. Hypercar and a few others.
Twinscroll is offline  
 
post #4 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 07:55 PM
InnerCircle
Owner
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 498
I’m really in to modding cars since I got my first ever car, and can tune some cars myself (I’ve tuned my own Evo, and flashed my M3 myself too), so I’ve had this conversation with a few tuners too around the Mac. I agree that most of them have the same story - they are the only ones able to do it, the only ones with the right crypto keys, the only ones with the special hardware, etc. I firmly believe that the amount of BS from a tuner goes up as the value of the car goes up - primarily due to owners typically not being as technically savvy about how ECU’s work, etc (versus a mod heavy community like Evo, STI, GTR, etc).

The ECU on the 570S is virtually identical to the 650S, 12C, 675LT, etc, with the same M838T engine (ME17.8.3.2 on all of them). Flashing your 570S with the same map as a 675LT would essentially gain you 100HP while maintaining all OEM fail safes. I wouldn’t actually be surprised if many tuners basically do this and claim “700HP”. Making adjustments for catless pipes will need some modifications to the secondary O2 threshold stuff, but it’s probable that tuners just let the adaptations give you the additional power (ie no map changes for catless pipes).

Tuners for such an expensive car will want to be as safe as possible (to avoid angry customers that have money), so the likelihood that your map is just based on another OEM map is high, and that it’s been copied and shared is also high (anyone developing their own tune will have to assume some risk, not to mention cost with test cars which aren’t cheap).

So is it safe? Probably. Is it unique? Probably not.

Thanks!

Z.
zerokewl is offline  
post #5 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 08:05 PM Thread Starter
 
McBroke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 609
Great feedback guys, I appreciate it. It’s crazy the domestic car world I came from got you a full custom dyno tune for $500. These tunes range from $2k-$5k and guaranteed they’re not as custom as my old C7 1k hp tune was. My Porsche was fully changeable on the fly and it could have multiple tunes stored in the AccessPort. No such luck with these cars.

I’m personally glad to see more competition
within the community and hopefully we can eventually see more transparent REAL data... not just someone’s estimated numbers with nothing to back it up. Good stuff.
McBroke is offline  
post #6 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 08:55 PM
Sponsor
 
DME Tuning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: North Jersey - 201 / Abu Dhabi UAE
Posts: 224
Garage
Real world data . Lighting up numbers on a dyno isn't all that difficult, for the few that are developing their own maps.
Deltron Zero likes this.
DME Tuning is offline  
post #7 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 08:56 PM
Owner
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,643
Yeah for sure deffinately not the dame style tuning as what domestic products have that is for sure.

Also a very intriguing topic to me as well. Is this the same for other brands as well or is it just mclaren or are other extoics the same way?
dvandentop is online now  
post #8 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
 
McBroke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 609
I’ve seen across the board these crazy charges for most exotics. Dallas Performance (A local high end tuner near me) charges crazy money to tune Lamborghini, Ferrari, as well as McLaren cars... although they’re usually doing big dollar builds not just a simple tune with down pipes. But it’s unreal what the charge is for basically the same software tweaks that any other tuner uses with similar tools like HP Tuners for domestic cars.
McBroke is offline  
post #9 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 09:34 PM
 
Alex-AwDesigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBroke View Post
This may or may not be a very popular post. Especially since I’ve discussed this topic with several tuners... but I’m trying to find out if anyone has talked in-depth to the guys tuning these cars besides myself?

Each and every tuner out there right now actually says they’re the ONLY ones actually tuning these cars, the “other” guys are buying their boxed tune from over the pond. This alleged “tune in a box” was developed by some guy in Europe and most all the guys tuning McLarens just buy that software and tweak it very little. Hence the reason most of these cars makes roughly the same power.

Million dollar question I have regarding tuning a $200-$400k car is this... is it done within the failsafes designed into the car, such as knock sensors, over boost protectors, timing advance issues... whatever so you don’t grenade a $60k motor. I love the idea of going as fast as I can make a car go, but not at the expense of the cars reliability.

Anyone FACTUALLY know if these guys are safely tuning these cars or are they all just crap shooting on someone else’s dime? I guess I mean does anyone actually know the guy tuning the ecu or is it just a trust you establish with said company they’re being honest and not using a generic “box” tune?

Any feedback would be insightful as well as maybe helping others who are on the fence about tuning their cars... absolutely not meant to be a bash fest on any shops or independents who tune or perform work on McLarens as a whole.

Hey McBroke,

This is a great topic that doesn’t get brought up or discussed very much.

When we work with our partner (Evolution motorsports) on developing software for these cars we certainly retain all of the fail-safes features in order to protect the car. If the car has any mechanical issue the car will go into a reduced power “limp” mode in order to make the driver aware of the issue as well as to protect the engine from having a catastrophic failure.

When we our developing the software for a specific model we do vigorous testing on the dyno to insure the car will run properly throughout the entire RPM range. While dyno testing we are collecting data from the ECU so we can see what the car is exactly doing, If the data shows something we do not like or something that we feel is making the car underperform in any circumstance, We will immediately stop the run and investigate through the data on what is causing the issue. After this we will make a revision to the file in order resolve the issue. Then it is back to the dyno for more testing. Once we feel the car meets our performance standards as well as being reliable as OEM and everything in the data looks good and is consistent run after run after run we then take the car out for road testing. During road testing we drive the car thoroughly to find any flaws in drivability (if there are any) over a course of a few days to insure the car can perform properly though various conditions (different temperatures, elevations, casual city driving, highway driving ETC). Upon passing all of these test we then deliver the car back to the customer (if it is not a in-house car) who was kind enough to let us use the car to develop the software and let them enjoy it! After this we release the software and make it available to everyone since we have tested it with successful results.

As far as the software we use to create and alter the files in these cars we use a propriety software that we have been using for many years and we do not use a standard “generic” program that is easily accessible and easy to obtain for just an average person to get.

If you or anyone else has any more questions I would be happy to try my best to answer them as thoroughly as I can


Cheers,
Alex-AwDesigns is online now  
post #10 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 10:04 PM
 
Alex-AwDesigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBroke View Post
Iíve seen across the board these crazy charges for most exotics. Dallas Performance (A local high end tuner near me) charges crazy money to tune Lamborghini, Ferrari, as well as McLaren cars... although theyíre usually doing big dollar builds not just a simple tune with down pipes. But itís unreal what the charge is for basically the same software tweaks that any other tuner uses with similar tools like HP Tuners for domestic cars.

Dallas performance is a phenomenal place. Wayne is one of the best standalone ECU (Syvecs, Motec) tuners out there (Which is why the price is higher than others) and has been around for quite some time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Alex-AwDesigns is online now  
post #11 of 96 Old 01-11-2019, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
 
McBroke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-AwDesigns View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBroke View Post
I’ve seen across the board these crazy charges for most exotics. Dallas Performance (A local high end tuner near me) charges crazy money to tune Lamborghini, Ferrari, as well as McLaren cars... although they’re usually doing big dollar builds not just a simple tune with down pipes. But it’s unreal what the charge is for basically the same software tweaks that any other tuner uses with similar tools like HP Tuners for domestic cars.

Dallas performance is a phenomenal place. Wayne is one of the best standalone ECU (Syvecs, Motec) tuners out there (Which is why the price is higher than others) and has been around for quite some time.


Sent from my iPhone using

Tapatalk
Yes sir! I know Wayne from my Porsche days... one of the best in the business. Unfortunate they use generic software for McLaren brands. They obviously specialize in Lambos and Ferraris.
McBroke is offline  
post #12 of 96 Old 01-12-2019, 12:08 AM
 
Alex-AwDesigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerokewl View Post
I’m really in to modding cars since I got my first ever car, and can tune some cars myself (I’ve tuned my own Evo, and flashed my M3 myself too), so I’ve had this conversation with a few tuners too around the Mac. I agree that most of them have the same story - they are the only ones able to do it, the only ones with the right crypto keys, the only ones with the special hardware, etc. I firmly believe that the amount of BS from a tuner goes up as the value of the car goes up - primarily due to owners typically not being as technically savvy about how ECU’s work, etc (versus a mod heavy community like Evo, STI, GTR, etc).

The ECU on the 570S is virtually identical to the 650S, 12C, 675LT, etc, with the same M838T engine (ME17.8.3.2 on all of them). Flashing your 570S with the same map as a 675LT would essentially gain you 100HP while maintaining all OEM fail safes. I wouldn’t actually be surprised if many tuners basically do this and claim “700HP”. Making adjustments for catless pipes will need some modifications to the secondary O2 threshold stuff, but it’s probable that tuners just let the adaptations give you the additional power (ie no map changes for catless pipes).

Tuners for such an expensive car will want to be as safe as possible (to avoid angry customers that have money), so the likelihood that your map is just based on another OEM map is high, and that it’s been copied and shared is also high (anyone developing their own tune will have to assume some risk, not to mention cost with test cars which aren’t cheap).

So is it safe? Probably. Is it unique? Probably not.

Thanks!

Z.
Unfortunately it is not that simple,

All of these cars are not identical..... They may share the same M838T engine however each have their own mechanical limitations as well as different internal ECU part numbers and software numbers. if you try to throw a 675LT map into a 570 your going to run into issues and the car will not run properly due to the parameters being different due to differences in hardware.


I think its safe to say all us (Myself/Evoms, DME Tuning, Dyno-spectrum ETC) have differences in our files and they are all unique from one another.


Cheers,
mikey k, PieGuy and Twinscroll like this.
Alex-AwDesigns is online now  
post #13 of 96 Old 01-12-2019, 12:21 AM
Owner
 
AZ Charlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Arizona & Montana
Posts: 235
Garage
I had Rich at DynoComp (Scottsdale, AZ) do my ECU tune and with the Velocity AP cat delete and x pipe. I had zero issues and drove that car for 2,800 miles before I sold it. It truly made the car so much more fun to drive and sounded amazing! I only had that car for eleven months (since new) and I never had an issue with the car.
Twinscroll likes this.
AZ Charlie is offline  
post #14 of 96 Old 01-12-2019, 12:34 AM Thread Starter
 
McBroke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Charlie View Post
I had Rich at DynoComp (Scottsdale, AZ) do my ECU tune and with the Velocity AP cat delete and x pipe. I had zero issues and drove that car for 2,800 miles before I sold it. It truly made the car so much more fun to drive and sounded amazing! I only had that car for eleven months (since new) and I never had an issue with the car.
I know my Buddy Gabe had his 720 tuned by Velocity and it’s been flawless so far. And stupid fast too. Thanks for your feedback. Interesting how many tuners are out there right now...
McBroke is offline  
post #15 of 96 Old 01-12-2019, 02:13 AM
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 763
I used to be in the tuning business. The one thing that made me just feel awkward was seeing what you all see. The valu eof the cars will reflect the cost of the tune.

The time it takes to do proper welding on exhausts be it for a Lambo, McLaren, or an Evo, GTR, Subaru...is the same. Mock up time is a bit harder due to some body and routing challenges at times, but that RnD cost is easy to recoup. Outside of the exotic metal systems, the cost of a set of bloody pipes gets stupidly expensive for the sake of exotic car 'tax' (If you own a GTR, you know about GTR tax)

As far as ECU stuff. Depending on how you look at it, its also similar. While i gave up in that side gig a long time ago, I was around when Cobb was still owned by Cobb etc. Exotics tend to have a bit more work around them. There is a higher risk factor too, that tuners will take in to cost perspective. Good tuners will buy their own exotic and work on that. Most will use software to interface to the ECU, either by bench or by OBD if allowed and from there you are basically watching Air/Fuel ratios and Lambda readings and trying to extract power while avoiding DET. Its not 'easy' but Its not what I would call, worth it....not in an exotic car that already is well beyond average performance. (personal opinion)

Standalone (no more OEM ECU) tuning is more complex, you are sometimes starting from zero, so cost there is justified. There is A LOT to do if you are going to do it right. Also not easy these days with how much all the systems talk to each other.
@zerokewl "The ECU on the 570S is virtually identical to the 650S, 12C, 675LT, etc, with the same M838T engine (ME17.8.3.2 on all of them). Flashing your 570S with the same map as a 675LT would essentially gain you 100HP while maintaining all OEM fail safes."

Im guessing this is a huge simplified example right? because no tuner who wants to keep anything close to a reputation would do this...pulling the data for comparison and using it as a base to maybe try to work off sure, but its not going to be a 1:1 just reflash and out the door.

I don't bother with the tuning world on any car passed 2000s these days. I enjoy the challenges that come with getting power from old cars. 300HP in a old 70s 'tin can' puts a pretty decent grin on anyone's face, might not win those 1/4miles or VMax, but, where are you 90% of the time anyway.

I dont know, I once sat down and calculated what I have spent tuning the various cars ive had in my life. GTR32/34s/35 Subarus, Evos, AMGs....I went and got myself a 675LT and dont give crap about tuning anymore*...I like to personalize as much as anyone, but I tend to keep it simple now.

*modern cars...

Last edited by PieGuy; 01-12-2019 at 02:24 AM.
PieGuy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the McLaren Life forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome