Mercedes-AMG Hypercar - Page 3 - McLaren Life
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post #31 of 77 Old 12-27-2016, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CJ aka that HyperColor P1 View Post
yes of course they will corner better than the chiron.

the biggest thing with these cars will be the tires- I'd almost say they will have to be completely different in every way from anything currently being released as a road car tire...mainly because the cars are so light that when they are in a straight line doing a 60-160mph run they will need a ton of grip for acceleration but not parasitic drag (in order to max the access targets) but they will need to have extremely special sidewalls in order to go around a corner at 2.5+G.

The instantaneous aero/lateral load on the tire at corner entry on a fast track (Spa, COTA, Silverstone) would be incredible.
I wouldn't rule out the possibility of small diameter wheels. ie 13-15 inch. That way the tire manufacturers have more sidewall to work with. I just don't know how they will adapt similarly sized carbon/carbon brakes for street use at that size, or what their brake solution will be.

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post #32 of 77 Old 12-27-2016, 05:50 AM
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I wouldn't rule out the possibility of small diameter wheels. ie 13-15 inch. That way the tire manufacturers have more sidewall to work with. I just don't know how they will adapt similarly sized carbon/carbon brakes for street use at that size, or what their brake solution will be.
I don't think it's likely that a car like this would have small-diameter wheels. But if it did, and Mercedes wanted to use discs that were too large to fit within those wheels, they could just move the brakes inboard; the discs don't HAVE to be inside the wheels.

Inboard brakes have their own problems, of course, that someone would have to solve.

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post #33 of 77 Old 12-27-2016, 03:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CJ aka that HyperColor P1 View Post
yes of course they will corner better than the chiron.

the biggest thing with these cars will be the tires- I'd almost say they will have to be completely different in every way from anything currently being released as a road car tire...mainly because the cars are so light that when they are in a straight line doing a 60-160mph run they will need a ton of grip for acceleration but not parasitic drag (in order to max the access targets) but they will need to have extremely special sidewalls in order to go around a corner at 2.5+G.

The instantaneous aero/lateral load on the tire at corner entry on a fast track (Spa, COTA, Silverstone) would be incredible.
Yeah, I didn't choose my words carefully in regards to the new Bugatti. It won't win any handling & grip awards although I bet it will be impressive for it's mass, but I understand it will just about dominate the straight-aways.

Agree with you about the tires. One would think they would have to be massively wide, tall, and perhaps buck the trend of minimal sidewall in order to achieve those cornering numbers.

It boggles the mind to think that this car and the AM-Red Bull car will be an order of magnitude above the P1, 918 & LaF.

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It doesn't matter how long the engines last because:

1) They'll barely get driven on average
2) Rebuild cost won't be that high compared to the cost of the car.

Even if you had to rebuild it once a year, it wouldn't be an issue.
It actually surprises me how often I see cars that I consider really, really special get driven & driven hard.

I would venture a guess that the rebuild costs would be astronomical if the power train purported is as advanced and as expensive as it would have to be in order to achieve it's performance and reliability targets.
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post #34 of 77 Old 12-27-2016, 05:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CJ aka that HyperColor P1 View Post
yes of course they will corner better than the chiron.

the biggest thing with these cars will be the tires- I'd almost say they will have to be completely different in every way from anything currently being released as a road car tire...mainly because the cars are so light that when they are in a straight line doing a 60-160mph run they will need a ton of grip for acceleration but not parasitic drag (in order to max the access targets) but they will need to have extremely special sidewalls in order to go around a corner at 2.5+G.

The instantaneous aero/lateral load on the tire at corner entry on a fast track (Spa, COTA, Silverstone) would be incredible.
They're claiming the AM-RB001 can lap Spa faster than 2016 F1 race laps.
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post #35 of 77 Old 12-27-2016, 06:14 PM
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If so, that would be the track version on slicks with movable aero and no artificial regulatory restrictions.
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post #36 of 77 Old 12-27-2016, 07:03 PM
 
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If so, that would be the track version on slicks with movable aero and no artificial regulatory restrictions.
Agree, The Mercedes is planned to be very light weight. Centripetal force is directly proportional to mass. So that combined with auto adjustable downforce aero, and better F1 type suspension should give the car great cornering capability and acceleration.
As the AMG car will not be limited by the FIA F1 rules restrictions it could be lighter than a F1 car, have more HP than an F1 car, have variable aero not allowed on a F1 car, have better brakes than an F1 car, and use tires designed specifically for the car. So even in road going trim it could be a close match to the F1 cars performance.
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post #37 of 77 Old 12-27-2016, 11:27 PM
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Agree, The Mercedes is planned to be very light weight. Centripetal force is directly proportional to mass. So that combined with auto adjustable downforce aero, and better F1 type suspension should give the car great cornering capability and acceleration.
As the AMG car will not be limited by the FIA F1 rules restrictions it could be lighter than a F1 car, have more HP than an F1 car, have variable aero not allowed on a F1 car, have better brakes than an F1 car, and use tires designed specifically for the car. So even in road going trim it could be a close match to the F1 cars performance.
Only point I would question is "better brakes than an F1 car". As an F1 car under hard braking will generate -5g, I have difficulty imagining that many, indeed any, wannabe owners would be able to cope with that, not to mention more than that.
The other factor is the need to get carbon-carbon brakes hot before they begin to generate friction. That would make them unusable in the road version and questionable (in the context of who would be driving) in the track version. I suspect it's more likely that the car will have a substantial air-brake, which of course is not allowed under F1 rules but would potentially generate enormous retardation (especially considering how light the vehicle might be) whilst enabling Aston to employ conventional carbon-ceramic rotors.
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post #38 of 77 Old 12-28-2016, 01:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
Only point I would question is "better brakes than an F1 car". As an F1 car under hard braking will generate -5g, I have difficulty imagining that many, indeed any, wannabe owners would be able to cope with that, not to mention more than that.
The other factor is the need to get carbon-carbon brakes hot before they begin to generate friction. That would make them unusable in the road version and questionable (in the context of who would be driving) in the track version. I suspect it's more likely that the car will have a substantial air-brake, which of course is not allowed under F1 rules but would potentially generate enormous retardation (especially considering how light the vehicle might be) whilst enabling Aston to employ conventional carbon-ceramic rotors.
Well my understanding is that the FIA effectively limits braking. They do not want ultra late braking going into corners as that would eliminate overtaking at corners and also be dangerous for a driver following close. ABS systems are not allowed nor any electronic control of the braking process except to compensate for rear ERS. The size of the brake rotors are specified. A single caliper with 6 pistons and 2 pads are also specified. The use of liquid brake cooling is forbidden. So yes there is room to "improve" F1 braking.
And yes I agree with you only jet fighter pilots, A West, and F1 drivers will come close to the limits of this (at this time) mythical car!

Edit: Just remembered:--
The rear brakes are small. Most of the braking at the rear axle comes from engine compression braking. The F1 car is "always" in gear when on track. I believe that small amounts of gas and ignition spark retardation are used to prevent rear wheel lockup when the driver takes his foot off the gas pedal.
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Last edited by eMcL; 12-28-2016 at 02:00 AM.
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post #39 of 77 Old 12-28-2016, 11:22 AM
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Well my understanding is that the FIA effectively limits braking. They do not want ultra late braking going into corners as that would eliminate overtaking at corners and also be dangerous for a driver following close. ABS systems are not allowed nor any electronic control of the braking process except to compensate for rear ERS. The size of the brake rotors are specified. A single caliper with 6 pistons and 2 pads are also specified. The use of liquid brake cooling is forbidden. So yes there is room to "improve" F1 braking.
And yes I agree with you only jet fighter pilots, A West, and F1 drivers will come close to the limits of this (at this time) mythical car!

Edit: Just remembered:--
The rear brakes are small. Most of the braking at the rear axle comes from engine compression braking. The F1 car is "always" in gear when on track. I believe that small amounts of gas and ignition spark retardation are used to prevent rear wheel lockup when the driver takes his foot off the gas pedal.
We may have had in mind different definitions of "better" braking.

AIUI, currently F1 cars generate in excess of -5g under heavy braking, with the extreme being -5.8g at Monza. AIUI, humans who have not undertaken specialised training can experience blackout as low as -3g. In addition to blackout effects on vision, brain function and, potentially, consciousness, at -5g there is the problem of the weakness of the neck relative to the load being put on it. Most track-day dudes could not last through two laps of -4g braking.

I just can't see anyone except someone who is trained and fit to the same level as a Formula One driver being able to make use of -5g braking, much less braking that is "better" than -5g.

Regarding the potentiality of achieving braking in excess of -5g in the Aston, LMP1 cars generate only about -3.5g. Although LMP1s benefit from much bigger rotors than F1 cars have, obviously the weight is the problem. But how likely is it that the track version of the Aston will weigh as little as an LMP1: 870kg? I'd be surprised if the Aston came in at under a ton (apples-to-apples with the LMP1). Without an air-brake of some sort, there is no way that a car weighing a ton could generate in excess of -5g, when the best a car weighing 870kg can do is -3.5g.

Where I was coming from was that I am sceptical that the Aston will be able potentially to generate more negative g than a Formula One car can achieve and, even if it could, the amateur behind the wheel could not cope with it.

If however by "better" you mean modulation, control, and the ability to exploit the braking system, you make a good point. ABS helps a lot on a circuit. Unless one has the leg strength of Ezekiel Elliott, servo assistance is necessary with either carbon-ceramic or carbon-carbon rotors. Keeping the brakes (and of course the tyres) within their designed operating temp range matters in F1 and LMP1; doing that in the Aston will be another engineering challenge, although I can't imagine that brake cooling should be a problem.
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post #40 of 77 Old 12-28-2016, 12:34 PM
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My typical routine is +10/-8 limited. G loading generates blackouts when the loading vector is along the axis of the body. Especially bad for blacking out is G loading towards your toes as it pulls blood from your head. Particularly unenjoyable is G loading to your eyeballs; it just sucks thus my normal -8 limit. In another sport, I my braking routinely hit 3.2. I can tell you that braking Gs are a walk in the park. They are instantaneous in inception and VERY short lived. The hardest part for me about learning to brake in a (relatively) high downforce car was the need to instantly come off the pedal almost as soon as you get slammed against your belts. At 200 mph, you could leg press with all your might on the brake pedal and not lock up the brakes on my last car. However, if you did not come off the pedal force almost as fast as you stood on the pedal, the car would bleed speed so quickly that you loose the downforce and the car locks up.

I've been told by people that should know that braking is the last thing you learn to do in a car. My experience, along with other amateurs I helped come to grips with the problem, would indicate those guys were correct.

Can we talk about Aero Lull????? That is another fun learning curve with high downforce cars.
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post #41 of 77 Old 12-28-2016, 01:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
Yeah, I didn't choose my words carefully in regards to the new Bugatti. It won't win any handling & grip awards although I bet it will be impressive for it's mass, but I understand it will just about dominate the straight-aways.

Agree with you about the tires. One would think they would have to be massively wide, tall, and perhaps buck the trend of minimal sidewall in order to achieve those cornering numbers.

It boggles the mind to think that this car and the AM-Red Bull car will be an order of magnitude above the P1, 918 & LaF.



It actually surprises me how often I see cars that I consider really, really special get driven & driven hard.

I would venture a guess that the rebuild costs would be astronomical if the power train purported is as advanced and as expensive as it would have to be in order to achieve it's performance and reliability targets.
You can buy old F1 cars. People do use them. They don't cost as much as you'd think to rebuild/service. Much of the cost of an F1 car isn't in actual manufacturing, but development and such. The cost per car drops substantially if they made 200 of them rather than a handful.

Rebuild cost wouldn't be that high and the life of it would be longer. F1 engines don't last that long, but they are also running extremely hard almost their entire life and probably get rebuilt for absolutely performance and reliability, not because they are totally dead. Given the limits of an F1 car, you'd never be able to run the cars even remotely close to peak performance in the vast majority of usage unless you used it exclusively on a track.

So now you'd have an "F1" engine that's actually just cruising at 70mph or something like that most of the time. I'd also point out that these cars would actually have the potentially to be better and more reliable than F1 cars because there are literally no rules to road cars. F1 cars have all kinds of rules that restrict things.
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post #42 of 77 Old 12-28-2016, 02:40 PM
 
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My typical routine is +10/-8 limited. G loading generates blackouts when the loading vector is along the axis of the body. Especially bad for blacking out is G loading towards your toes as it pulls blood from your head. Particularly unenjoyable is G loading to your eyeballs; it just sucks thus my normal -8 limit. In another sport, I my braking routinely hit 3.2. I can tell you that braking Gs are a walk in the park. They are instantaneous in inception and VERY short lived. The hardest part for me about learning to brake in a (relatively) high downforce car was the need to instantly come off the pedal almost as soon as you get slammed against your belts. At 200 mph, you could leg press with all your might on the brake pedal and not lock up the brakes on my last car. However, if you did not come off the pedal force almost as fast as you stood on the pedal, the car would bleed speed so quickly that you loose the downforce and the car locks up.

I've been told by people that should know that braking is the last thing you learn to do in a car. My experience, along with other amateurs I helped come to grips with the problem, would indicate those guys were correct.

Can we talk about Aero Lull????? That is another fun learning curve with high downforce cars.
Interestingly, if you lie down instead of sitting, you can actually withstand >14g. And at one point, BAE were planning to design a stealth aircraft that had this with cameras feeding the pilot info on a helmet-mounted display. Maybe one day some crazy folk will also apply this to cars, possibly with some aero and CoG benefits too.



Without special suit or anti-g straining techniques.
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post #43 of 77 Old 12-28-2016, 02:45 PM
 
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I'd also point out that these cars would actually have the potentially to be better and more reliable than F1 cars because there are literally no rules to road cars.
That's not quite, as VW found out. Emissions restrictions can be very severe in some places. There are also noise regulations and crash testing regulations. Stuff needed for MoT etc.
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post #44 of 77 Old 12-28-2016, 02:47 PM
 
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If so, that would be the track version on slicks with movable aero and no artificial regulatory restrictions.
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post #45 of 77 Old 12-28-2016, 03:57 PM
 
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We may have had in mind different definitions of "better" braking.

Where I was coming from was that I am sceptical that the Aston will be able potentially to generate more negative g than a Formula One car can achieve and, even if it could, the amateur behind the wheel could not cope with it.

If however by "better" you mean modulation, control, and the ability to exploit the braking system, you make a good point. ABS helps a lot on a circuit. Unless one has the leg strength of Ezekiel Elliott, servo assistance is necessary with either carbon-ceramic or carbon-carbon rotors. Keeping the brakes (and of course the tyres) within their designed operating temp range matters in F1 and LMP1; doing that in the Aston will be another engineering challenge, although I can't imagine that brake cooling should be a problem.
Yes for most, including me, it is more about the dream. Owning such a car and basking in the glory of a "Lewis Hamilton" (choose your own favorite F1 driver) record lap time of an historic F1 circuit would be epic.
When discussing braking it is not always about the peak g force at a particular corner but more about a higher average around the track. So yes ease of use to max retardation has a large impact on lap times.
Friction braking is about converting kinetic energy to heat energy (conservation of energy) so yes better conduction of heat away from the friction area affects brake performance and as liquid is denser than air it can carry more heat away.
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