Mercedes-AMG Hypercar - Page 2 - McLaren Life
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post #16 of 77 Old 11-28-2016, 03:08 PM
 
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Seems like they would have to do the split turbo if they want to maintain any semblance of the F1 unit.

1,000 reliable horsepower from a turbocharged 1.6L is not unimaginable. As said above, they squeeze that much despite all of the various limitations in the F1 rulebook. Just nixing the fuel flow limits vastly opens up the possibilities. Having to operate within the F1 formula means that they have to build these kleenex engines to extract every possible ounce of performance that the rules will allow.

F1 has been making over 1,000 horsepower from less volume since the 1970s, 1980s. Tuner guys with honda civics have been making 1,000 horsepower for decades as well. I'm sure Mercedes Benz can make 1,000+ reliable horsepower from 1.6L in 2017 or 2018.
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post #17 of 77 Old 11-28-2016, 06:42 PM
 
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I have no idea what to make of this car. I have one on order and a dippy down but the engine in a road car really is hard to imagine. What we do know is Merc will have no problem splashing the cash at the development costs of this car, a bit like Porsche with the 918 so it should be good... but then at the reputed prices it better be! If i had to pick id rather a BP23 by a country mile today but i fully hold judgement until i know more.
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post #18 of 77 Old 11-28-2016, 09:54 PM
 
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I have no idea what to make of this car. I have one on order and a dippy down but the engine in a road car really is hard to imagine. What we do know is Merc will have no problem splashing the cash at the development costs of this car, a bit like Porsche with the 918 so it should be good... but then at the reputed prices it better be! If i had to pick id rather a BP23 by a country mile today but i fully hold judgement until i know more.
o: congrats. must suck not getting the exclusive car you want but having to settle for another

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post #19 of 77 Old 11-29-2016, 01:18 AM Thread Starter
 
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post #20 of 77 Old 11-29-2016, 01:29 AM
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They say that they are using a detuned V6 powertrain from the current Formula 1 program. I can't see how they will see any longevity from that engine without it being rebuilt after xxxx miles.

I know that with the Carrera GT, which is as close as I dare say to a Supercar with a race spec motor, the motor only feels good until it has 5,000 miles on it. After that point, the motor feels noticeably different in terms of the power delivery and the power available.

Even if it is a detuned unit, they are pushing approx 1000 horsepower (in qualifying spec) from the lets face it tiny 1.6L V6. There is not that much room in terms of detuning further to create longevity. Also the fact is that 850-1000 horsepower is the aim for this powertrain, and the F1 cars are lasting 2,000 - 3,000 miles in a cycle, which is not in the 1000 horsepower, quali trim all the time anyway.

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post #21 of 77 Old 11-29-2016, 08:46 AM
 
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Is it 1,000hp from the ICE or in total though?
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post #22 of 77 Old 11-29-2016, 02:39 PM
 
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Bruhs, just look back at 80s F1 era with the 1.5L turbos. 1,200, 1,300, 1,400 horsepower in qualifying trim. No fuel flow regulations, no kers.
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post #23 of 77 Old 11-30-2016, 03:06 AM
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Bruhs, just look back at 80s F1 era with the 1.5L turbos. 1,200, 1,300, 1,400 horsepower in qualifying trim. No fuel flow regulations, no kers.
Back in the 80's they were using a new engine in every session... That is 5 units in every race weekend. There was no longevity in those motors. Now that they are restricted to 6 units a season, not per race weekend, they are testing them, close to 3,000 miles per cycle. The substitute is obviously power.

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post #24 of 77 Old 11-30-2016, 02:44 PM
 
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Back in the 80's they were using a new engine in every session... That is 5 units in every race weekend. There was no longevity in those motors. Now that they are restricted to 6 units a season, not per race weekend, they are testing them, close to 3,000 miles per cycle. The substitute is obviously power.
Good point, but a) this was in the 80s, it's been a few decades, and b) they had no incentive to stretch the engines.

What is holding the teams back on power is the rulebook, not the reliability. While they definitely make some compromises to make their motors last longer, the real limit to power is the artificial formula that makes it F1, especially the limits on total fuel and maximum fuel flow. Very simply, more fuel=more power. Even the kers units are limited by the rules, not capability.
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post #25 of 77 Old 11-30-2016, 02:51 PM
 
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Bruhs, just look back at 80s F1 era with the 1.5L turbos. 1,200, 1,300, 1,400 horsepower in qualifying trim. No fuel flow regulations, no kers.
And carcinogenic toluene fuel.
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post #26 of 77 Old 11-30-2016, 02:55 PM
 
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Back in the 80's they were using a new engine in every session... That is 5 units in every race weekend. There was no longevity in those motors. Now that they are restricted to 6 units a season, not per race weekend, they are testing them, close to 3,000 miles per cycle. The substitute is obviously power.
But conversely, look at rpm capabilities back then, about half what 2.4 NA V8s were running in 2006. Now factor in variable geometry turbos, modern engine management processing power, and e-assist to eliminate lag and monitor engine health and it's not that clear cut.

The BT52 was running 1000hp in race trim. Now double rpm and you get 2000hp before you factor in the rest of modern technology. The Red Bull X1 concept was actually pretty tame relative to what unrestricted F1 would manage with a 3.0 V6TT. I think if F1 went money is no object on such a beast, top fuel dragsters would tremble at the acceleration and fighter pilots would squeal at the g-force.
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Last edited by Mycroft; 11-30-2016 at 02:59 PM.
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post #27 of 77 Old 12-26-2016, 09:35 PM
 
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Man, how I wish it really ends up looking like this.

This & the RB-001, are they going to be in the Bugatti Chiron ballpark for acceleration AND be able to corner better?
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post #28 of 77 Old 12-26-2016, 10:47 PM
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Man, how I wish it really ends up looking like this.

This & the RB-001, are they going to be in the Bugatti Chiron ballpark for acceleration AND be able to corner better?
yes of course they will corner better than the chiron.

the biggest thing with these cars will be the tires- I'd almost say they will have to be completely different in every way from anything currently being released as a road car tire...mainly because the cars are so light that when they are in a straight line doing a 60-160mph run they will need a ton of grip for acceleration but not parasitic drag (in order to max the access targets) but they will need to have extremely special sidewalls in order to go around a corner at 2.5+G.

The instantaneous aero/lateral load on the tire at corner entry on a fast track (Spa, COTA, Silverstone) would be incredible.

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post #29 of 77 Old 12-26-2016, 11:08 PM
 
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yes of course they will corner better than the chiron.

the biggest thing with these cars will be the tires- I'd almost say they will have to be completely different in every way from anything currently being released as a road car tire...mainly because the cars are so light that when they are in a straight line doing a 60-160mph run they will need a ton of grip for acceleration but not parasitic drag (in order to max the access targets) but they will need to have extremely special sidewalls in order to go around a corner at 2.5+G.

The instantaneous aero/lateral load on the tire at corner entry on a fast track (Spa, COTA, Silverstone) would be incredible.
basically slightly scaled down f1 intermediate tires for the road and f1 soft/mediums tires for the track

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post #30 of 77 Old 12-27-2016, 03:22 AM
 
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It doesn't matter how long the engines last because:

1) They'll barely get driven on average
2) Rebuild cost won't be that high compared to the cost of the car.

Even if you had to rebuild it once a year, it wouldn't be an issue.
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