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Old 09-24-2013, 01:43 PM   #16
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Thanks for the great explanation!
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:57 PM   #17
 
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Interesting.. however... The 918 was clearly shown to have run out of electric power per lower top speed down dottinger hohe compared to some earlier straights. And the 918 has considerably higher battery capacity despite a greater electric power output and I think the maths ends up to being full battery power for 115s or something like that (I'm a bit lazy to find the exact figures sorry...) which is longer than the 87 seconds you have for the P1. Given the 918 has the capability to charge the battery through braking as well, it would seem strange the P1 will be able to maintain it's electric capability throughout the lap compared to the 918?

Unless the torque differential between the turbo v8 and the NA engine of the 918 is such that it can charge the battery that much more off throttle.....or the 918 is able to use far more of the full electric power available being awd etc so depletes it's batteries to a far greater extent and is not able to recharge it.
I'll take a stab at this.

The P1 may not have enough charge from it's battery alone (i.e. no active regeneration, all out mode) to run a "Hot lap" ala the 918 Spyder on The Ring. That's my guess? So when they say it doesn't run out (unless I'm mistaken), that's in their "race" mode, applying regeneration from the engine of the batteries.

The 918 Spyder can run the ring, and practically any other track in "race hybrid" mode and never run out of juice (due to engine and brake regeneration). This has already been established by prospective owners, drivers, media alike on a variety of tracks. FWIW: Race Hybrid mode is supposed to be 3-5 secs behind "hot lap mode" on the ring. However, the battery [in the 918] is so big, they can run the ring with no regeneration, for practically the entire thing. Towards the end, on the straights, Lieb was probably placing it in "Race Hybrid" mode to regenerate the batteries at that point.

This wouldn't be an issue for the overwhelming majority of owners, who would rarely ever have the need to place the 918 in "Hot Lap Mode", and drive it near 10/10's on a track as long as the Nurburgring to begin with. I'm sure most (unless they were race car drivers), could never drive it 8-10/10th in Race Hybrid mode. Remember, all the 918's performance stats (0-60, etc.) are in Race Hybrid Mode, which regenerates the batteries via the brakes, and/or engine.

I hope that helps??
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Old 09-24-2013, 08:02 PM   #18
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Makes sense

Does beg the question though whether Mclaren need the hot lap mode of 903 is available all the time on a lap of the ring...

Am sure over the coming weeks well work out what the differences are and why therefore the cars perform differently if indeed they do..
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:56 PM   #19
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The P1 has no "hot lap" mode, and does not need a "hot lap" mode.. wtf is that anyway?!

There is absolutely no reason to not regenerate battery. Are you telling me that the 918 does not slow down before a corner!? If it slows down, it can regen, its very easy.


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Old 09-24-2013, 10:05 PM   #20
 
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@Ftyl

Not sure if you're joking?

That's what I was saying. Lol.

The P1 appears to have no "hot lap" mode like The 918, or the capacity to do so (at least on the ring).

And I'm not sure you read (if you're responding to me) my post clearly, and why I responded/gave the answer I did. I explained it all.

It appears Mikeyb, read, understood it (Not being rude)?
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:17 PM   #21
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CarMeister, I am neither joking, nor does it matter to me if you said that.. Your post makes it sound like it is somehow "bad" that the P1 has no hot lap mode. But my post is clarifying that it does not matter at all since a hot lap mode is not needed and would add nothing.

So again, I am honestly not sure what you are trying to claim.

You are correct, the porsche needs a "hot lap mode" for some reason to achieve a faster time on the ring. This makes little sense and the P1 does not need it. A "hot lap mode" would add nothing because the P1's ECU does not make the car slower in hybrid mode.


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Old 09-24-2013, 10:33 PM   #22
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ftyl View Post
CarMeister, I am neither joking, nor does it matter to me if you said that.. Your post makes it sound like it is somehow "bad" that the P1 has no hot lap mode. But my post is clarifying that it does not matter at all since a hot lap mode is not needed and would add nothing.

So again, I am honestly not sure what you are trying to claim.

You are correct, the porsche needs a "hot lap mode" for some reason to achieve a faster time on the ring. This makes little sense and the P1 does not need it. A "hot lap mode" would add nothing because the P1's ECU does not make the car slower in hybrid mode.
With all due respect. I think you're confused, and didn't read/understand what I was responding to. And I'm to lazy to re-read ISV's question. But quite frankly, I think you're overreacting. "Hot lap" came up; cause ISV mentioned the 918 running out of charge, and speculated why, what it would to on it's further laps (while mentioning the P1 as well)? That was the entire premise for my response.

FYI/According to Porsche: The 918 could to 7-7:02 on the Ring in "Race Hybrid mode" where it regenerates the battery constantly via engine and brake regeneration. As you know, this time is currently faster than anything we know of the P 1. This is a time it should do over and over again as well. As I said in my response: the 918 has ran on various tracks for owners, writers and drivers alike in Race Hybrid, while keeping a steady charge. So what you're implying ("the 918 needs a hot lap mode") is not an issue.

I repeat. It's just the 918's battery is so big, it can practically do the entire ring with out engine regeneration. That's a bonus (and really so hard to understand)!? Though in reality, the overwhelming majority of owners would never need to use it ("Hot Lap"). And it certainly does fine by itself in Race Hybrid. But of course the big battery, has it's benefits on the track and the real world (performance, cabin conveniences, etc.), besides "Hot Lap" mode. It just makes the 918 a versatile vehicle. I was only addressing a question regarding battery depletion, additional laps with the 918. There is/was no "fanboyism".

The P1 was never criticized. That was your interpretation? I was just answering, addressing the two vehicles, regarding the 918's recent Ring Video with Lieb at the helm, in lieu of ISV's comments. "Hot Lap" on the Ring, essentially means the 918 has a bigger battery, which we already knew.

I hope that helps (for good)? Whew!

Last edited by CarMeister; 09-24-2013 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:51 PM   #23
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CarMeister...

you are right, we know nothing about the P1's ring time. And this whole thread has nothing to do with the time either. It is an explanation of the tech in the P1 that was discussed many times.

Just since you keep bringing up the 918... the battery in the 918 has 6.8kWh. Even ignoring the front engine, taking only the one connected to the gearbox, 115kW. Will only power for 212 seconds. Less than half the time it takes around the lap. Explain to me how it uses "all the power" the whole lap using a "hot lap" feature?!

None of this makes sense. But more importantly, this is a P1 thread about its tech, can we stop discussing 918 tech please?


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Old 09-24-2013, 11:20 PM   #24
 
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Quote:
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CarMeister...

you are right, we know nothing about the P1's ring time. And this whole thread has nothing to do with the time either. It is an explanation of the tech in the P1 that was discussed many times.

Just since you keep bringing up the 918... the battery in the 918 has 6.8kWh. Even ignoring the front engine, taking only the one connected to the gearbox, 115kW. Will only power for 212 seconds. Less than half the time it takes around the lap. Explain to me how it uses "all the power" the whole lap using a "hot lap" feature?!

None of this makes sense. But more importantly, this is a P1 thread about its tech, can we stop discussing 918 tech please?
HOT Lap uses selective regeneration compared to Race Hybrid and it's other modes. Generalizations are used (Porsche included) to avoid confusing nomenclature, technical terms, electrical, battery charge, dissipation figures, etc... You know that.

Yes, it's a P1 thread. And I never criticized the P1, or offered a wanton, unprompted opinion on the vehicle. I answered a posters question, in regards to the 918. And I thought I gave a good answer at that, concerning what he was seeking Some how you took offense?

There was never any disrespect to the P1. And I ONLY brought up the 918's Ring Times in "Race Hybrid" mode, cause you kept repeating 'The 918 needs HOT LAP to record and repeat fast laps', thus alleging it was inferior to McLaren's Hybrid set up (not that it matters). That's all.

This was really never a comparison, competition between the two vehicles in my eyes. And I would be happy to end it right now.
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:06 AM   #25
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This was a great thread - crystal clear.

The 918 can someone shoot the porker and bury it once and for all.


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Old 09-25-2013, 01:29 AM   #26
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@ftyl
Thanks for your post. It really cleared up a lot of the confusion for me.

I suspect the P1 will be much faster then most people think it is considering how much more advanced it aerodynamics are (seem to be) compared to the other two. They may have had to sacrifice a little in terms of aesthetics (subjective, of course) for the sake of aerodynamics but given their stated goals for the P1, they've done the right thing.
I imagine the P1 will be devastating around places like Suzuka, Silverstone or Spa.
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Old 09-25-2013, 03:28 AM   #27
 
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Great post ftyl, that's the most complete information on the P1 drive train I've read anywhere, thanks for posting.

Quote:
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I suspect the P1 will be much faster then most people think it is considering how much more advanced it aerodynamics are (seem to be) compared to the other two.
I looked up the numbers and the difference is much greater than I anticipated for most cars:

2009 GTR - 176 pounds of downforce at 186 mph
2011 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 - 426 lbs of downforce at 193 mph
Enzo Ferrari - 1709 lbs of downforce 185 mph (note: it reduces downforce above 186 mph to achieve a higher top speed)

McLaren P1 - 600 kg ( ~ 1323 lbs ) of downforce at 161 mph

Quote:
They may have had to sacrifice a little in terms of aesthetics (subjective, of course) for the sake of aerodynamics but given their stated goals for the P1, they've done the right thing.
Sacrifice? The P1 is perfect. It's so good it's hard to find the right adjectives to describe it really.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otterly Ridiculous View Post
Great post ftyl, that's the most complete information on the P1 drive train I've read anywhere, thanks for posting.



I looked up the numbers and the difference is much greater than I anticipated for most cars:

2009 GTR - 176 pounds of downforce at 186 mph
2011 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 - 426 lbs of downforce at 193 mph
Enzo Ferrari - 1709 lbs of downforce 185 mph (note: it reduces downforce above 186 mph to achieve a higher top speed)

McLaren P1 - 600 kg ( ~ 1323 lbs ) of downforce at 161 mph



Sacrifice? The P1 is perfect. It's so good it's hard to find the right adjectives to describe it really.
I'm a little suspicious of those downforce figures of the Enzo. It sounds really high. Are those figures from Ferrari? If it's true, that seems pretty impressive even at that high speed.

I understand that you think the P1 looks perfect but a lot of people think it's not so great. That's why I was careful to write "subjective" in my post. Regardless, my point was I have no reason to doubt the P1 will be much faster then any other roadcar on most tracks.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:32 AM   #29
 
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Does anyone here know the exact date McLaren plans to release the p1s lap time and final unveiling??
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:57 AM   #30
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ftyl - great write up, thanks for sharing. I like to clarify one detail on the battery charging bit - what you describe

1) The ECU applies negative torque to the motor, unless the battery is full, when you are off throttle.

This is in fact KERS - right? i.e. the energy in this mode is converted kinetic energy?
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