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Old 11-04-2013, 02:08 AM   #811
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Anyone know what time the UAE unveiling kicks off?
The show starts at 2:00 PM Dubai time.
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:26 AM   #812
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The show starts at 2:00 PM Dubai time.
Bummer,can you believe im flying through Dubai at 2.15,then on a 7 hour flight,so you guys will know that there is NO lap time before me


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Old 11-04-2013, 02:27 AM   #813
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Not sure what you mean by big deals, but your question seems sincere enough.

My answer is quite simply that the most cunning, devious and masterful of marketers - namely, Ferrari - has yet to play a hand in this game. They are seasoned veterans at these shenanigans and know that it matters less what you actually have done, rather more what you can persuade people that you have done (or are capable of doing). The Fiorano lap time, for example, is an uncontested benchmark that they serially use to market the prowess of each successive model. It's brilliant because it cannot be trivialized by any competitor - and their target customers predictably eat it up.

On the other hand, Porsche endured quite a lot of embarrassment whilst embroiled in their Ring debacle with Nissan. They spent a lot of money and effort effectively un-marketing themselves. They played right into Nissan's hand and ended up being compared ad nauseum to a car half the price.

It may be better for McLaren to be perceived as the fastest vs. posting a time - only to have Ferrari claim they are faster still. Witness the EVO article - if they can get words published to the effect that common opinion is that the P1 is fastest, why set themselves up to have that title stripped unceremoniously by Ferrari's marketing maestros? All the magazines and websites took the LaFerrari 0-186 MPH time of 15s as gospel before the monocoque even passed a single crash test. You see?

Further, McLaren currently enjoys, along with Ferrari, a public image of Forumula One pedigree and, in the F1, the one supercar of the past 20 years that is valued by the market above all others in the same timeframe. It really does not pay to be seen as scrapping downmarket (public perception, not necessarily mine) with Porsche, just as Porsche was with Nissan, when Ferrari can and probably will just happily position themselves as above it all.

All that said, my personal hope is that they do release a lap time and kick-ass video. I really want to see what the P1 can do. But, as I said, I think both options have strategic merit.
Great post 6th


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Old 11-04-2013, 02:52 AM   #814
 
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The show starts at 2:00 PM Dubai time.
Cheers Mark
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:44 AM   #815
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Hey - was that Peleton at 2:46 going 10 - 10ths
Cute.

People who actually know me would find your earlier question a laughable one, that's all.

Also, to those who asked if someone here would dare to be a passenger around the Ring in any one of these videos, you can sign me up; no hesitation. Speed is a thrill I always enjoy - the more the better. It's heights I'm not particularly fond of.

>8^)
ER
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:59 AM   #816
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Originally Posted by Peloton25 View Post
Cute.

People who actually know me would find your earlier question a laughable one, that's all.

Also, to those who asked if someone here would dare to be a passenger around the Ring in any one of these videos, you can sign me up; no hesitation. Speed is a thrill I always enjoy - the more the better. It's heights I'm not particularly fond of.

>8^)
ER
Well, you have more nerve than me. Good for you. Being a passenger was never my thing.

Last edited by DLC; 11-04-2013 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:11 AM   #817
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Cute.

People who actually know me would find your earlier question a laughable one, that's all.
Indeed.

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Also, to those who asked if someone here would dare to be a passenger around the Ring in any one of these videos, you can sign me up; no hesitation. Speed is a thrill I always enjoy - the more the better. It's heights I'm not particularly fond of.

>8^)
ER
I would definitely do it too!
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:07 AM   #818
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Originally Posted by 6th element View Post
Not sure what you mean by big deals, but your question seems sincere enough.

My answer is quite simply that the most cunning, devious and masterful of marketers - namely, Ferrari - has yet to play a hand in this game. They are seasoned veterans at these shenanigans and know that it matters less what you actually have done, rather more what you can persuade people that you have done (or are capable of doing). The Fiorano lap time, for example, is an uncontested benchmark that they serially use to market the prowess of each successive model. It's brilliant because it cannot be trivialized by any competitor - and their target customers predictably eat it up.

On the other hand, Porsche endured quite a lot of embarrassment whilst embroiled in their Ring debacle with Nissan. They spent a lot of money and effort effectively un-marketing themselves. They played right into Nissan's hand and ended up being compared ad nauseum to a car half the price.


It may be better for McLaren to be perceived as the fastest vs. posting a time - only to have Ferrari claim they are faster still. Witness the EVO article - if they can get words published to the effect that common opinion is that the P1 is fastest, why set themselves up to have that title stripped unceremoniously by Ferrari's marketing maestros? All the magazines and websites took the LaFerrari 0-186 MPH time of 15s as gospel before the monocoque even passed a single crash test. You see?

Further, McLaren currently enjoys, along with Ferrari, a public image of Forumula One pedigree and, in the F1, the one supercar of the past 20 years that is valued by the market above all others in the same timeframe. It really does not pay to be seen as scrapping downmarket (public perception, not necessarily mine) with Porsche, just as Porsche was with Nissan, when Ferrari can and probably will just happily position themselves as above it all.

All that said, my personal hope is that they do release a lap time and kick-ass video. I really want to see what the P1 can do. But, as I said, I think both options have strategic merit.
6th, great precise........could be titled 'It's all in the mind'


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Old 11-04-2013, 01:12 PM   #819
 
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Originally Posted by 6th element View Post
Not sure what you mean by big deals, but your question seems sincere enough.

My answer is quite simply that the most cunning, devious and masterful of marketers - namely, Ferrari - has yet to play a hand in this game. They are seasoned veterans at these shenanigans and know that it matters less what you actually have done, rather more what you can persuade people that you have done (or are capable of doing). The Fiorano lap time, for example, is an uncontested benchmark that they serially use to market the prowess of each successive model. It's brilliant because it cannot be trivialized by any competitor - and their target customers predictably eat it up.

On the other hand, Porsche endured quite a lot of embarrassment whilst embroiled in their Ring debacle with Nissan. They spent a lot of money and effort effectively un-marketing themselves. They played right into Nissan's hand and ended up being compared ad nauseum to a car half the price.

It may be better for McLaren to be perceived as the fastest vs. posting a time - only to have Ferrari claim they are faster still. Witness the EVO article - if they can get words published to the effect that common opinion is that the P1 is fastest, why set themselves up to have that title stripped unceremoniously by Ferrari's marketing maestros? All the magazines and websites took the LaFerrari 0-186 MPH time of 15s as gospel before the monocoque even passed a single crash test. You see?

Further, McLaren currently enjoys, along with Ferrari, a public image of Forumula One pedigree and, in the F1, the one supercar of the past 20 years that is valued by the market above all others in the same timeframe. It really does not pay to be seen as scrapping downmarket (public perception, not necessarily mine) with Porsche, just as Porsche was with Nissan, when Ferrari can and probably will just happily position themselves as above it all.

All that said, my personal hope is that they do release a lap time and kick-ass video. I really want to see what the P1 can do. But, as I said, I think both options have strategic merit.
This is all nice (and you bring up some good points), except one problem: Buyers didn't care about GTR ring times, or the GTR altogether. That was actually a Nissan creation, media fascination.

Buyers (which many here are) didn't care. The sales numbers reflect that. Nissan barely sold 1000 GTR's in America last year. Other years, they sold under 900. Porsche may sell more GT3's alone than either number. The GTR is/was an absolute sales dud. Only the media and Carlos Ghosn shenanigans keep its viability alive. Internet fanboys currently keep it's name alive. On the contrary, buyers in this market don't care. Instead, they're buying 911's SL's, Ferrari's, Aston's, McLaren's, R8's, etc., not GTR's. The sales numbers (and their garages) demonstrate and reflect this. I will admit, Porsche took some abuse with the close Internet followers/fan boy types. But at the same time, the GTR could never test close to it's Ring times in independent hands anyway (your marketing discussion personified). Nissan certainly did a good job marketing their vehicle to the media/fan boys, agreed (though no one bought it anyway)! The GTR could be argued as a loss leader for Nissan (though I'm sure others will argue it helps their image in other ways, even if this is true).

And I don't think Porsche holds the RING as an absolute marketing tool the way some may feel. I think with them, it's important, yes (due to car set up, location, etc.). But it's also one part of a series of things they deem important (i.e., comfort, usability, reliability, endurance, etc.) once they decide to build a car. Remember, it was Nissan that made the 911 Turbo their original benchmark (as so many high performance/GT/Exotic manufacturer's make Porsche their benchmark); not Porsche. I think Porsche's a very (ahem) German, transparent company, who seemingly gets challenged with every new release and high performance car benchmark. It comes with the territory (and them being German) I guess? Just look at how they've methodically and systematically upgraded the 918's specs and performance numbers the past two years, regardless of the initial or prolonged Internet speculation and perception during it's run up? Porsche's confident enough in their cars and buyers, to let them ultimately do the talking and marketing upon release. And Porsche's still improving the 918 right not as far as we know.

One thing we know for sure: Neither of these Hyper-Brids will be raced or experience prolonged track usage (unless the owners is willing to spend tons of money on upkeep). Therefore, any race track bonafides would be artificial, and a long use road/race track like the RING becomes more realistic to the real world, and actual owners/drivers.

I found your "down market" references laughable for many reasons ("down market" is in the eye of the beholder my friend, regardless of $$). But in order not to insult any manufacturer and risk possible banning (as I've seen it done here), I will leave that notion (and why) alone, altogether. But I will assure you (as many of you know), not all luxury, exotic or high performance manufacturer's have a quality image with actual buyers and drivers (or at least all of them), as opposed to compromised media, non enthusiast, investor types, or teary eyed dreamy fan boys perceptions. This could go for interiors, reliability, drive train origin, service, etc, by the way. But "exclusivity" doesn't always buy quality, or it's perception.

As a matter of fact: Many buyers of these Halo type cars will want exclusively/mostly the Porsche, The Ferrari and the McLaren for differing or even the same reasons, based upon the car makers various histories, past products, reputations, pedigrees, who they are (the car maker and buyer) and what they represent to them. So it's laughable indeed.

I do agree, McLaren's better off, winning the Internet war (having many of it's fans believe it posted a sub 7 or great time), especially if they didn't achieve one. Now of course, in some peoples eyes, this will be seen as a negative/blight on McLaren's part as well. But what are they do (pending "Tuesday" in the much awaited Bahrain of course).

Sports car/exotic/high performance, even McLaren and Porsche fans (like so many other things), just don't fit one stereotype, as you're making them out to be. Some will like what McLaren's doing, while others will hate it. Some will lose faith in Woking (especially those who bought into the initial hullabaloo, and claims in the first place).

On another note: I find it ironic, that many of the same fans, here and elsewhere), who were killing the 918 (before even really knowing anything about it); stating 'Who Wants An ECO Friendly Super Car? Give Me More Speed!!, etc."... Remember that/them?...These are now largely the same ones pontificating on safety and the benefits of being good public citizens. Gotta Luv It!

Wasn't it McLaren and Ron Dennis who brought this upon themselves with breaking records, 6:33/mood board times goals, all time down force, best track car ever, etc, Big Boi Talk, in the first place..??

Come on now. We all know if McLaren had posted a legitimate Ring time, many of these same fans (and McLaren for that matter) would be hailing it and the P1 as a landmark/benchmark achievement in motor cars and McLaren's history. But that's fine. And I understand why. And we wait for Tuesday......

I guess, I just consolidated various post into one.
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:27 PM   #820
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Originally Posted by Peloton25 View Post
Cute.

People who actually know me would find your earlier question a laughable one, that's all.

Also, to those who asked if someone here would dare to be a passenger around the Ring in any one of these videos, you can sign me up; no hesitation. Speed is a thrill I always enjoy - the more the better. It's heights I'm not particularly fond of.

>8^)
ER
Thanks

Peleton I have read a lot of your posts on TS - I don't know you but that really wasn't our discussion ...

It was about going 10 - 10ths not being a passenger and I simply asked where when and in what car.

Anyway because I don't know you that doesn't mean I don't give a shit about you or anyone else.

Simply don't understand why people can't be safe when they push something like a 900 hp car for 7 minutes.

Watching someone risk their life in a sport I love may be selfish.

Pretty sure you recall a highly skilled young Porsche driver Sean Edwards who was a passenger and died - so let's be honest while you may post it's a thrill we both know it's not that simple.

I hope the driver in the accident recovers - last news was he is in a coma.


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Old 11-04-2013, 02:13 PM   #821
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This is all nice (and you bring up some good points), except one problem: Buyers didn't care about GTR ring times, or the GTR altogether. That was actually a Nissan creation, media fascination.

Buyers (which many here are) didn't care. The sales numbers reflect that. Nissan barely sold 1000 GTR's in America last year. Other years, they sold under 900. Porsche may sell more GT3's alone than either number. The GTR is/was an absolute sales dud. Only the media and Carlos Ghosn shenanigans keep its viability alive. Internet fanboys currently keep it's name alive. On the contrary, buyers in this market don't care. Instead, they're buying 911's SL's, Ferrari's, Aston's, McLaren's, R8's, etc., not GTR's. The sales numbers (and their garages) demonstrate and reflect this. I will admit, Porsche took some abuse with the close Internet followers/fan boy types. But at the same time, the GTR could never test close to it's Ring times in independent hands anyway (your marketing discussion personified). Nissan certainly did a good job marketing their vehicle to the media/fan boys, agreed (though no one bought it anyway)! The GTR could be argued as a loss leader for Nissan (though I'm sure others will argue it helps their image in other ways, even if this is true).

And I don't think Porsche holds the RING as an absolute marketing tool the way some may feel. I think with them, it's important, yes (due to car set up, location, etc.). But it's also one part of a series of things they deem important (i.e., comfort, usability, reliability, endurance, etc.) once they decide to build a car. Remember, it was Nissan that made the 911 Turbo their original benchmark (as so many high performance/GT/Exotic manufacturer's make Porsche their benchmark); not Porsche. I think Porsche's a very (ahem) German, transparent company, who seemingly gets challenged with every new release and high performance car benchmark. It comes with the territory (and them being German) I guess? Just look at how they've methodically and systematically upgraded the 918's specs and performance numbers the past two years, regardless of the initial or prolonged Internet speculation and perception during it's run up? Porsche's confident enough in their cars and buyers, to let them ultimately do the talking and marketing upon release. And Porsche's still improving the 918 right not as far as we know.

One thing we know for sure: Neither of these Hyper-Brids will be raced or experience prolonged track usage (unless the owners is willing to spend tons of money on upkeep). Therefore, any race track bonafides would be artificial, and a long use road/race track like the RING becomes more realistic to the real world, and actual owners/drivers.

I found your "down market" references laughable for many reasons ("down market" is in the eye of the beholder my friend, regardless of $$). But in order not to insult any manufacturer and risk possible banning (as I've seen it done here), I will leave that notion (and why) alone, altogether. But I will assure you (as many of you know), not all luxury, exotic or high performance manufacturer's have a quality image with actual buyers and drivers (or at least all of them), as opposed to compromised media, non enthusiast, investor types, or teary eyed dreamy fan boys perceptions. This could go for interiors, reliability, drive train origin, service, etc, by the way. But "exclusivity" doesn't always buy quality, or it's perception.

As a matter of fact: Many buyers of these Halo type cars will want exclusively/mostly the Porsche, The Ferrari and the McLaren for differing or even the same reasons, based upon the car makers various histories, past products, reputations, pedigrees, who they are (the car maker and buyer) and what they represent to them. So it's laughable indeed.

I do agree, McLaren's better off, winning the Internet war (having many of it's fans believe it posted a sub 7 or great time), especially if they didn't achieve one. Now of course, in some peoples eyes, this will be seen as a negative/blight on McLaren's part as well. But what are they do (pending "Tuesday" in the much awaited Bahrain of course).

Sports car/exotic/high performance, even McLaren and Porsche fans (like so many other things), just don't fit one stereotype, as you're making them out to be. Some will like what McLaren's doing, while others will hate it. Some will lose faith in Woking (especially those who bought into the initial hullabaloo, and claims in the first place).

On another note: I find it ironic, that many of the same fans, here and elsewhere), who were killing the 918 (before even really knowing anything about it); stating 'Who Wants An ECO Friendly Super Car? Give Me More Speed!!, etc."... Remember that/them?...These are now largely the same ones pontificating on safety and the benefits of being good public citizens. Gotta Luv It!

Wasn't it McLaren and Ron Dennis who brought this upon themselves with breaking records, 6:33/mood board times goals, all time down force, best track car ever, etc, Big Boi Talk, in the first place..??

Come on now. We all know if McLaren had posted a legitimate Ring time, many of these same fans (and McLaren for that matter) would be hailing it and the P1 as a landmark/benchmark achievement in motor cars and McLaren's history. But that's fine. And I understand why. And we wait for Tuesday......

I guess, I just consolidated various post into one.
Your arguments do not adequately address the concept of brand value, which exists quite distinctly from units sold. Every action has consequences and brings future opportunities and/or constraints.

For example, Porsche very deliberately took their brand down-market by making SUVs and 4-door cars, and even the Cayman. It was necessary for profits, in fact survival at some points. It would be convenient for them (and 911 owners and fans) if they could have done so without diluting the brand image, but that is simply not reality. The Porsche badge is now very common in most parts of the world, which is one of the reasons that Joe Average believes a Ferrari California is more expensive and faster than a Carrera GT. Likewise, being compared to Nissan is not advantageous, regardless of units sold.

Ferrari understands these phenomena better than anyone and they are masters at leveraging it to build brand value. That is why newly rich consistently line up to buy a Rosso Corsa as their first reward to themselves and it means constant demand for Maranello. McLaren is an interesting model; they want half of Ferrari's volume, but want to compete down-market with Porsche on the P13. There are days when I prefer that they wouldn't. But again, the reality is that they need to provide ROI for the stakeholders and this is one way to do it, in this economy. But the brand value will suffer in some ways, especially when compared to Ferrari, by selling the cheaper P13 alongside Porsche.
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:54 PM   #822
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Why do we have here this debate anyway? Yes, it's dangerous, yet people still do it. They take their cars to racetrack because it's the only place they can drive (legaly) faster. It's much worse when someone risks others lives in traffic. They keep going on Ring too and crashing a lot...

But the point is it's life and it's dangerous. Thousands of people die everyday and we even notice. So please, this is a pointless debate. If someone is willing to do something dangerous, let him do that. If he wants to drive his supercar at 10/10ths so what?

I know it may sound stupid and harsh, but that's the fact. It's called life, get over it. I know this paragraph may sounds OMG, but couldn't help it.

--------------------------------------

What's the point of making a supercar that is stupidly fast then and meant to be driven by our ,average Joe? They are constantly making these cars faster and faster, usable only for dragstip and frankly those top speeds and completely pointless when you can't reach them in shorter distances. And I'm glad that McLaren is not following this speed war.

They wanted to improve different area - car handling and make the fastest car around race track in this part of galaxy by designing it by air under full moon, making magical brakes from powder made from unicorn horn, fluids extracted from Ron Dennis's blood (because we know he bleeds McLaren when he cuts himself) and by studying stuffed fish (sorry Frank if you read this, couldn't help myself here).

Now how do we know they achieved that? We need a proof - a LAP TIME! It doesn't have to be the Ring time, but I hope they'll show us something. RD claimed P1 to be faster around Silverstone by 5s than GT3 race car? PROOF! TG road car track record maybe? Bring it on!

<Joke Alert !!!>
I'm sure Mr Pagani will be willing to lend you some cut slicks he surely stores somewhere in his basement. And you could always call to Ferrari to gain some knowledge on how to make a proper Ringer.
<End of Joke>

But I can't see a reason why they wouldn't want to reveal their Nurburgring time unless they failed to achieve better lap time than claimed 7 minutes. And that's what many people will think, no matter how capable the car may seem. Never promise anything you can't deliver. And if you tested hard and then silence, it's not a good sign after all those big talks.

At first, I didn't like this car much, but now I really do. Fantastic job from McLaren. I like the look much more than 918 of laF. Another future-proof design like F1 maybe? But now we need to know how capable it is in "right" hands. Otherwise no need to bother and just make a 5-door hybrid commuter next time.

Last edited by BLM; 11-04-2013 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:13 PM   #823
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Pretty sure you recall a highly skilled young Porsche driver Sean Edwards who was a passenger and died - so let's be honest while you may post it's a thrill we both know it's not that simple.

I hope the driver in the accident recovers - last news was he is in a coma.
Sure is easy to focus on the one recent incident that resulted in tragedy than it is the countless numbers of laps on racetracks around the world where people didn't die. I feel for Edwards, his family, his friends and his fans, but come on now...

Headline should read: "Life has risks - news at 11"

>8^)
ER
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:20 PM   #824
 
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Hello McLarenLifers. My first post here, so I will keep it brief. I agree that you can't make one of the major marketing points of your car its track prowess without breaking some sort of production car lap record somewhere, be it Dunsfold, the Ring, Silverstone, wherever.

Could it be that the reason they haven't posted an official Ring time yet is that they have been working on the set up of the car to get the best possible result? 7:04 ... 6:47 ... third time (lucky)?
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:21 PM   #825
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Champagne612:

Thank you.

I couldn't agree more with your comments which is the very reason my request to MSO for P1 incorporates ROLL PROTECTION. Ring time or no Ring time this car is a very dangerous weapon. As I plan to utilize P1 more at track than road this was deemed a necessity along with Hans device and all other appropriate safety gear.. If one plans to explore this car or any of these hyper cars at the limit, these devices are mandatory in my book. 10 / 10ths in a road car is insane. I'm alive to tell you that statement is true.
Dlc,

I'll be shocked if they don't say that the mono cage is enough protection in roll over. I asked about Hans also but there's no physical connection to the car I believe in that the helmet straps attach to a support which uses your shoulders and chest as support .. I believe therefore that it's just a seat back angle adjustment BUT I have never used one so may be completely wrong.
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