70/70... impressive ! More details on the other statistics ? What about wet handling ?

 

Not bad for an independent test. what does the 70/70 mean?

cool image I found of previous Sport Auto tests:

 

There are 7 "tests" (2 lap times, slalom, escape manoeuvre, acceleration/braking, aerodynamic balance, skidpad if I have good memory), each with a mark from 1 to 10. 70/70 that it scored top on all 7.

 

Oh! thanks

Is this the correct list of previous times for this magazine?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_auto_(Germany)#Supertest_Nordschleife

 

Here is the list from Wikipedia. If somebody can post the scans of the article that would be great. Although it's probably in German?!

7:24 Gumpert Apollo Horst von Saurma 2009/11 [9]
7:32 Porsche Carrera GT Horst von Saurma 2004/01 [10]
7:33 Porsche 997 GT2 Horst von Saurma 2007/11, Sport tires [11]
7:33 Pagani Zonda F Horst von Saurma 2006/05 [12]
7:34 Koenigsegg CCR Horst von Saurma 2006/03 (17 October 2005) [13]
7:34 Nissan GT-R Horst von Saurma 2010/11 [14]
7:35 Ruf Rt 12 Horst von Saurma 2008/02, Sport tires [15]
7:38 Lexus LFA Horst von Saurma 2010/09, Street tires Bridgestone S001
7:38 Ferrari 458 Italia Horst von Saurma 2010/08, Michelin Pilot Sport PS2
7:38 Nissan GT-R Horst von Saurma 2009/07, Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST run flat tires
7:38 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 Horst von Saurma 2009/10, Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires
7:39 Ferrari F430 Scuderia Horst von Saurma 2008/07, Sport tires [16]
7:39 Porsche 997 Turbo TechArt GTstreet Horst von Saurma 2007/10, Sport tires [17]
7:40 Porsche 997 GT3 (2009) Horst von Saurma 2009/06,[18]
7:44 Pagani Zonda S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (02/2005)
7:46 Porsche 996 GT2 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (06/2001)
7:46 Lamborgini Gallardo Superleggera Horst von Saurma Sport Auto [19]
7:47 Porsche 996 GT3 RS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (08/2004)
7:47 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano Horst von Saurma Sport Auto[20]
7:47 Lamborghini Murciélago LP640 E-gear Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2007), Sport tires[citation needed]
7:49 Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (22 June 2007)[21]
7:50 BMW M3 CSL Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (08/2003)
7:50 2009 Porsche 997 Carrera S (2008) Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (08/2008),[22] PCCB, PDK, Sport Chrono Plus, Michelin Cup tires
7:52 Lamborghini Gallardo LP 560-4 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2008),[23] apparently problems with tires and ABS
7:54 Mercedes CLK DTM AMG Sport Auto (03/2005)
7:54 Porsche 997 Turbo Horst von Saurma (05/2007)[24]
7:55 Ferrari F430 F1 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2006)
7:56 Porsche 996 Turbo Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (06/2000)
7:56 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale f1 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (02/2004), Sport tires[citation needed]
8:02 Aston Martin DBS (2007) Horst von Saurma [2]
8:03 Aston Martin V8 Vantage (2005) Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/2005)
8:03 Porsche 996 GT3 (1999) Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (08/1999)
8:04 Audi R8 Sport Auto (07/2007)[25]
8:05 BMW M3 E92 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2007)[26]
8:09 Audi RS4 Sport Auto (06/2006)
8:09 BMW M6 E63 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2005), Sport tires, 259 km/h speed limiter.[citation needed]
8:09 Honda NSX-R Sport Auto (08/2002), Sport tires, suspension modification.[citation needed]
8:10 Chrysler Viper GTS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/1997)
8:10 BMW Alpina B6 S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (05/2008)[27]
8:10.08 Porsche Cayman S Walter Röhrl Sport Auto, 19 inch wheels, ceramic brakes.[citation needed]
8:13 BMW M5 E60 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2004)
8:13 Ferrari 355 GTB Sport Auto (10/1994)
8:13 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (1/2009?)[28]
8:14 BMW Alpina B3 Biturbo Coupé Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2008)[29]
8:16 Porsche Cayman S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2009?)[30]
8:17 Porsche Boxster S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2009?)[31]
8:18 Lexus IS-F Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (9/2008)[32]
8:22 BMW M3 E46 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2000)
8:22 BMW M Coupe E36/8 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/1998)
8:24 2004 Subaru Impreza Sport Auto (05/2004), Sport tires[citation needed]
8:25 Lotus Exige S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (06/2008)[33]
8:25 Jaguar XKR Horst von Saurma Sport Auto
8:25 Porsche Cayman S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto
8:24 Mitsubishi Charisma GT Evo VI Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/1999), Sport tires[citation needed]
8:25 Mitsubishi Charisma GT Evo VII Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2002), Sport tires[citation needed]
8:26 Audi S5 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2008)[34]
8:26 BMW 335i E92 Coupe Horst von Saurma Sport Auto
8:26 Nissan 350Z Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/2003)
8:28 Porsche 911 Carrera (993) Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (07/1997)
8:29 Audi TTS Coupé Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/2008)[35]
8:32 Porsche Boxster S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/1999)
8:38 Honda NSX Sport Auto, (08/1997)
8:39 Honda S2000 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2000)
8:40 Chevrolet Corvette C5 Sport Auto (07/1997), automatic transmission
8:42 Lotus Exige Mk1 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2000), Sport tires[citation needed]
8:47 Honda Civic Type-R Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2001)
8:49 Volkswagen Golf R32 Sport Auto (09/2006)
8:51 Ford Focus ST Sport Auto (09/2005)
8:53 Volkswagen Golf GTI DSG MK5 Sport Auto (11/2005)
8:54 Vauxhall Corsa VXR Sport Auto (04/2008)
9:05 Ford Focus RS Sport Auto (09/2005)

 

You know what feels pretty good?

Being fastest.

The noise that comes out the back is seconday.

 

Absolutely.

 

Rumours vs reality :

NBR lap time

rumour - 7:00
reality (sport auto) - 7:28

0-300km/h

rumour - 24,5s
official - 27,5s
reality - 31,0s

Finally we have a 0-300km/h time. GT2 RS is significantly faster. Aventador is in another league (24,5s by german AMS).

 

Come now. We all know that Sport Auto tests 2-up witha full tank and AMS test 1-up. Besides that the Aventador is £100k more and has 700hp. The lighter LP670 also took 29.8s with only 1 passenger, so maybe the Aventador is under-rated at 700hp, unless 5s (+the PWR discrepancy) was overcame by the difference between paddle-shift and DCT.

Sport Auto were also never going to beat the GT2 RS's time whether the car was capable of it or not.

 

@ emve

the german test situation is:
- Acceleration, full tank of fuel, 2 persons on board !!

Other tests half full tank and only one person on board!!

 

I was pretty sure that this car would be evaluated in the German press and among the German testers much better than in England!

 

Would love to hear what they say, subjectively, about the car... do they think it is the cold, ruthless Darth Vader, like the Brits? Perhaps somebody that speaks German can read the article and summarize?

 

I ran straight to the kiosk and have quickly taken the magazine
Here first results:
70 points from 70 points (more is not possible)
Nürburg:
GT2 RS 7,24
Mp4-12C 7,28
GT3 RS 4.0 7,30
R8 GT 7,34
Nis. GTR 7,36
458 7,38
LP 570 7,38

sensors are all okay, convinced the MP 4 with absolutely inspiring driveability. the grip that never seems to cut up and the high cornering speeds are hard to beat

Short Hockenheim
GT2 RS 1,08.4
Mp4-12C 1,08.7
LP 570 1,09.2
GT3 RS 4.0 1,09.5
R8 GT 1,09.6
ZR1 1,09.7
Nis. GTR 1,10.0

In terms of agility and steering response he makes what no one before

Maximum lateral acceleration

GT3 RS 4.0 1.5 g
MP4 + R8 GT + ZR1 1,4 g
458 + LP570 + SLS AMG 1,35 g

Wet handling with sport tyres!

LP570 1,38.0
Mp4-12 1,38.7
GT2 RS 1,38.7

a short final result:
The results are top (up on a wet handling) it is impossible to get more points. It is pure enthusiasm, which is established in view of this machine and not only spontaneously but also on duration.
But as evidenced by the impressive lap time, and satisfying ride comfort, the Mclaren has not promised too much

Andy

I translate more later, my wife calls to eat

 

I translate more later, my wife calls to eat

Enjoy your meal!

 

Hi, back again:
Mainly, the test tells the story of the whole techniques of the mp4, and everyone had at first thought that Ron had taken his mouth too full. But the tester does anticipate that this is not true. fantastic double-clutch gearbox matching motor.
The sound out of the two open huge exhaust pipes is big and loud.
The re-entry McLarens into previously by Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini super sports cars dominated stock may actually be seen as successful.
The claim to want putting both, driving dynamics and driving comfort (good for the Champions Leage cars), may be regarded as truly fulfilled! how well he masters the critical moment, the transition from hard braking into the acceleration phase at the same time, deserves absolute respect!
only one point of improvement:
One sensor was defect:
A sensor of the hydraulic landing gear(?) (Fahrwerk) was broken, the super-fast lap times on NBR was not possible, first had to be replaced. A display in the cockpit would be better to show if all the sensors are still working. Without knowing of this failure, very very fast driving is not so well. (uneasy driving feeling)

Andy

 

Wonderful, thanks. I wonder if the hydraulic suspension sensor problem is the same issue CAR mag had during their testing. This car is a production prototype, correct? I agree, it would be better to have some sort of indication of the malfunction in the dashboard display. Otherwise, if you aren't feeling for it, maybe you would drive around for a long time without knowing there was even an issue?

Like the Americans, the Germans seem to appreciate the unprecedented combination of phenomenal performance and truly everyday comfort. I think this bodes well for standard that McLaren is attempting to attain.

 

NOT the supertest but the article from last month:


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/testmclarenmp412c.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/testmclarenmp412c1.jpg/


so far no luck finding scans of the supertest

 

Good review, bad results...

The overall score for MP4 is very impressive, yet, the objective tests look poor. Again, McLaren claims are not confirmed in independent tests: 0-200 9.8 sec? Fully a sec off. 0-300 31sec? 4 sec off. Max lateral grip of 1.4 versus claimed 1.7?

Nordschleife time is very decent. Decent is the operative word here. Remember MP4 is on corsas. For comparison Italia's ( or sls's) time was on street tires. Once you account for that, the difference is not that impressive.

The overall super test result is very good as in sport auto being able to recognize the great mixture of everyday usability and performance. If only the performance was closer to the hype. I am not impressed with the McLaren organization, even though I still like the car.

 

The overall score for MP4 is very impressive, yet, the objective tests look poor. Again, McLaren claims are not confirmed in independent tests: 0-200 9.8 sec? Fully a sec off. 0-300 31sec? 4 sec off. Max lateral grip of 1.4 versus claimed 1.7?

Nordschleife time is very decent. Decent is the operative word here. Remember MP4 is on corsas. For comparison Italia's ( or sls's) time was on street tires. Once you account for that, the difference is not that impressive.

The overall super test result is very good as in sport auto being able to recognize the great mixture of everyday usability and performance. If only the performance was closer to the hype. I am not impressed with the McLaren organization, even though I still like the car.

Are you going to cancel your order? If not, are you going to demand answers from Woking for the discrepancies in test results thus far? Based on the TG time, the Car and Driver results and further more the Autozeitung(sp?) test results, I don't think you have a claim that they were lying, but I sure would love to hear how the conversation goes!!!

 

@ krzys

Don't forget the times are with full tank and 2 Persons!

 

@ all
a question of opinionis: is the glass half full or half empty??

The times of the McLaren are faster with full tank and a passenger than
the times of a 458 or 570 or R8 with less fuel and without a passenger on board!
So no matter if we go alone or with our wives, we can accelerate faster

 

@ 997
Was the 7.28 done with a defective sensor or after it was replaced?

The time was done with a replaced sensor.

 

@ 6th element
Otherwise, if you aren't feeling for it, maybe you would drive around for a long time without knowing there was even an issue?

it could happen to us at worst, and we would notice it only when we are hard pushing, and the car drives uneasy!?!

 

0-100 0-200 0-300 300-0 0-300-0

MP4-12C 3,3 s 9,7 s 31,0 s 7,1 s 38,1 s
Superleggera 570 3,6 s 10,7 s 32,3 s 7,0 s 39,3 s
Corvette ZR1 4,0 s 11,5 s 35,4 s 7,3 s 42,8 s
GT3 RS 4.0 3,6 s 11,5 s 41,0 s 6,5 s 47,5 s
Mercedes SLS AMG 3,9 s 11,7 s 42,2 s 7,3 s 49,5 s
Jaguar XKR-S 4,3 s 13,3 s 43,4 s 7,8 s 51,2 s
Lexus LFA 4,1 s 12,0 s 50,6 s 7,0 s 57,6 s

 

The same question:
Is the glass half full or half empty?

My glass is half full!
I can live with the results!
Mr. Surma is a good driver, but his laptimes NBR
are most times a little bit slower than the times
done by other german test-drivers!
Let's wait!
Andy

 

911 GT3 RS 4.0 did 7:30 in Supertest.

Shouldn´t be the MP4-12C much faster (more than mere 2 secs) ?

It has 100hp more, super clever suspension, mid-engine layout and sport tires as well...

 

HVS is a 911 expert,and its the first time in a 12c,given time im sure he would improve by several seconds,were as in the 911 he had done 1000,s of laps and is used to the balance,i for example am still driving the 12c like a 911 as ive done 200,000 miles in them,but not at speeds like HVS,and ive got a long way to go to get anywere near what a 12c can do !!! You know if Chris goodwin had driven it it would have been at its limit

 

I think it is more an example of a great performance by the RS 4.0, rather than anything else. Remember, there is a theoretical limit to these lap times- you can't keep improving by large chunks just by adding horsepower, especially if you are still around 3000 lbs in weight. Seems the fastest car they've ever tested, the Gumpert, is only a few sec faster still and it is 700HP and weighs 2700 lbs.

That is also why I keep saying that for the 12C to be in the class of these cars, including the GT2 RS, while being a full luxury version, is remarkable. Porsches are amazing. Really, they are phenomenal. But put racing bucket seats in the 12C and lap times will improve just because the driver has better torso support - I guarantee it. Now, account for the weight savings of those seats and the rest of the stripped out stuff and you've got a faster car, still. I don't know why some of you guys don't get that.

Forget the Gumperts and the RS models. The only other cars on that list that truly impress me are the GT-R and perhaps the Vettes. You can drive those cars anywhere for hours without getting a headache or hemorrhoids.

 

p.s. a mid-engine layout doesn't mean SQUAT for performance. Nothing! Polar moment of inertia, yada yada yada. In the real world, Porsche has been kicking mid-engine ass for decades and Corvette just won LeMans (again) with a front-engine.

 

That shouldn't be the case at all. Try winning Le Mans (not just a lower class) or F1 with anything other than then a mid engined vehicle and you'll sound find out it is a non-starter.

 

please have a look at:


http://www.sportauto-online.de/szen...news/neues-heft-sport-auto-11-2011-faszination-ferrari-und-0-300-0-4052376.html

 

Looks like Hvs has pressed both aero and manual buttons together in the video,that turns off all the traction control systems and in the first few seconds there is rain on the windshield,but i dont think there would be enough to make a difference,still can you drive a GTR with the systems off??not sure?
looking forward to CG driving,but i think we might have to wait till next year

 

Note that to set these times both the GT2 RS and the Gumpert Apollo Sport were shod with semi slick track tyres whereas the MP4-12C was running the road legal Pirelli Corsa tyres... Surely on semi slicks the MP4-12C would be far quicker still?

 

The GT2 RS and Gumpert would have been on street legal tires, too. The Porsche probably Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. From my experience on track, Corsas are in the same category as MPSCs, but probably not quite as grippy, especially when warmed up. I think you will find that opinion fairly common amongst track enthusiasts.

However, the real point is that you have to compare apples to apples in terms of the car's mandate. Before you conclude that the 12C is not the best handling car in the world and that McLaren failed, ask compared to what? Compared to a 911 Turbo, or Carrera 4S, or a Lambo, etc. Then absolutely, it is. Can you get higher cornering speed out of a GT2 RS or GT3 RS? Probably, in some instances, depending on the driver and type of corner. But, give the 12C the same 2-300 lb diet and I'm sure any notion of the RS cars being on par would evaporate again.

 

It's funny, before the big hype from early this year, I would have guessed the performance would be at exactly the levels it's coming in. Given the extra 30 horses, 300 lbs of weights advantage and superior stiffness over Italia, I would expect 10-15 secs, on the Nordschleife and a sec or so in 0-200.

I gave McLaren the benefit of the doubt when they started to tout the car as "the best handling car in the world". They failed. I think the car is still great. It offers something than no competition has: a track car that can be used everyday. It has some compromises. Some are unfortunate: the N/A versus Turbo for example. ALthough I have to say they did a great job there. The only significant failing is the sound. Others are understandable in such a focused car: the lack of tail out entertainment, for one. Again, not a problem on the track.

Yet, the whole hype story leaves a bit of a bitter taste. Ferrari has really turned me off with their lying and cheating ways. I simply enjoy their cars less due to the parent company behavior. Sadly, something similar is starting to cast a shadow over the McLAren for me. I am gonna still buy the car. I really like it. However, I did not want to be like many Ferrari owners who have to have their egos massaged through their cars. Give it to me straight. Don't lie.

 

It's funny, before the big hype from early this year, I would have guessed the performance would be at exactly the levels it's coming in. Given the extra 30 horses, 300 lbs of weights advantage and superior stiffness over Italia, I would expect 10-15 secs, on the Nordschleife and a sec or so in 0-200.

I gave McLaren the benefit of the doubt when they started to tout the car as "the best handling car in the world". They failed. I think the car is still great. It offers something than no competition has: a track car that can be used everyday. It has some compromises. Some are unfortunate: the N/A versus Turbo for example. ALthough I have to say they did a great job there. The only significant failing is the sound. Others are understandable in such a focused car: the lack of tail out entertainment, for one. Again, not a problem on the track.


Yet, the whole hype story leaves a bit of a bitter taste. Ferrari has really turned me off with their lying and cheating ways. I simply enjoy their cars less due to the parent company behavior. Sadly, something similar is starting to cast a shadow over the McLAren for me. I am gonna still buy the car. I really like it. However, I did not want to be like many Ferrari owners who have to have their egos massaged through their cars. Give it to me straight. Don't lie.

Again, I urge you to take your concerns directly to McLaren. Won't that be the true test of their integrity- i.e. the dialogue they engage with you? Yes, I am sure most companies, especially Ferrari, would tell you to go pound sand. Perhaps McLaren has satisfactory explanations for your questions. There are so many variables to each test, but you can't say the car is incapable of attaining its targets, as it had already demonstrated so in some instances. Maybe you wanted them to be conservative, like Porsche, which is fair. But perhaps McLaren has a reason for their own methods. You should ask before coming to the conclusion that they deceived you.

 

Interested to note from the video that the first half was sourced from McLaren.

Wonder why they never released it themselves as they certainly spent some money with helicopter shots and so on?

Wasn’t the 12C spotted with helicopter entourage a couple of weeks back at Nuerburgring, or was that the TSA filming?

 

My guess is that when Mc realized they wouldn't get a chance to film their own attempt this year (after the crash), they decided to use the existing footage in conjunction with the Sport Auto test. If so, pretty quick thinking. On that note, I wonder if they will do additional PR to capitalize on the perfect 70/70 score. Are there many cars on the list that also scored 70?