Depreciation: McLaren vs Ferrari - McLaren Life
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post #1 of 31 Old 02-04-2017, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Depreciation: McLaren vs Ferrari

I own a Ferrari and a McLaren. From the Ferrari community I always hear a very central statement: McLaren, outstanding cars, but the depreciation is terrible.

I have just studied the Swiss market in this regard, the following snapshot I made:

Ferrari 458
Total 74 available, 46 Coupe, 28 Spider, from 2009 - 2015
Price range CHF 126'900.- till CHF 260'000.-

Ferrari 458 Speciale
Total 6 available, 5 Coupe, 1 Aperta, from 2014 - 2015
Price range CHF 315'000 till CHF 339'900.- (Aperta CHF 600'000.-)

Ferrari 488 GTB
Total 25 available, 20 Coupe, 5 Spider, from 2015 till current
Price range CHF 239'900.- till CHF 350'000.-

McLaren 12C
Total 18 available, 13 Coupe, 5 Spider, from 2011 till 2014
Price range CHF 129'900.- till CHF 189'800.-

McLaren 650S
Total 4 available, 2 Coupe, 2 Spider, from 2014 (3) till current (1 Coupe "new")
Price range CHF 189'900.- till CHF 259'900.-

McLaren 675LT
Total 8 available, 3 Coupe, 5 Spider, from 2015 till current
Price range CHF 399'000.- till CHF 495'000.-

This little analysis (certainly just a simple indication and limited on the Swiss market) tells me that my Ferrari colleagues are only "conditionally" right.

The Ferrari 458 supply is significantly higher, but obviously also the demand. However, I think the depreciation is more or less balanced to the 12C and 650S. The 488 is surprising me, already so many cars in the used market? Wow! Do I see a disaster on the horizon for the 488 owners?

Although the prices are still high, the relatively high 675LT supply is surprising me. Got some speculators cold feet?
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post #2 of 31 Old 02-04-2017, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron5 View Post
I own a Ferrari and a McLaren. From the Ferrari community I always hear a very central statement: McLaren, outstanding cars, but the depreciation is terrible.

I have just studied the Swiss market in this regard, the following snapshot I made:

Ferrari 458
Total 74 available, 46 Coupe, 28 Spider, from 2009 - 2015
Price range CHF 126'900.- till CHF 260'000.-

Ferrari 458 Speciale
Total 6 available, 5 Coupe, 1 Aperta, from 2014 - 2015
Price range CHF 315'000 till CHF 339'900.- (Aperta CHF 600'000.-)

Ferrari 488 GTB
Total 25 available, 20 Coupe, 5 Spider, from 2015 till current
Price range CHF 239'900.- till CHF 350'000.-

McLaren 12C
Total 18 available, 13 Coupe, 5 Spider, from 2011 till 2014
Price range CHF 129'900.- till CHF 189'800.-

McLaren 650S
Total 4 available, 2 Coupe, 2 Spider, from 2014 (3) till current (1 Coupe "new")
Price range CHF 189'900.- till CHF 259'900.-

McLaren 675LT
Total 8 available, 3 Coupe, 5 Spider, from 2015 till current
Price range CHF 399'000.- till CHF 495'000.-

This little analysis (certainly just a simple indication and limited on the Swiss market) tells me that my Ferrari colleagues are only "conditionally" right.

The Ferrari 458 supply is significantly higher, but obviously also the demand. However, I think the depreciation is more or less balanced to the 12C and 650S. The 488 is surprising me, already so many cars in the used market? Wow! Do I see a disaster on the horizon for the 488 owners?

Although the prices are still high, the relatively high 675LT supply is surprising me. Got some speculators cold feet?
In the US market there is a lot more nuance with the depreciation game. In nearly all cases, if someone walked into a McLaren dealership and ordered a brand new 650s, to their spec, they could have done so with little fan fare and paid MSRP. Walking into a Ferrari dealership, intent on spec'ing and buying a brand new 488, unless connected, the same guy wouldn't have an option to spec a new car. He'd get to buy something in their lot inventory. Put too many miles on the lot car, it depreciates. Finally get to order the 488 and the dealer wants way over MSRP.

I love Ferrari cars but I would never own one simply because I can't stand the Ferrari games. For now they can get away with it because they are experts at managing their brand, intentionally not building enough cars to meet demand, and have a huge pool of current and aspirational buyers. I do think that is going to slowly change. Ferrari is at the mercy of the public market now, and they will demand returns. With McLaren still building towards 4000 cars a year, and with a theoretical MTC limit of about 5000 cars a year, Ferrari just celebrated 8000 cars in 2016 and are on their way to 10000.

Could Ferrari be in trouble over the next 5 to 10 years due to public market demands coupled with increased supply and some demand erosion brought on by companies like McLaren? I think so. That said though, as much as I don't like the Ferrari games, I do have huge respect for the business they've run and what they've built. They won't sit idly by, but if they aren't careful I think their lauded residuals will be at risk.

-Jamie.
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post #3 of 31 Old 02-04-2017, 03:28 PM
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If you decide before you make the purchase that you really want to drive the car a lot, then you know even the Ferrari will significantly depreciate because of the mileage. Then it's more of a level playing field, and I would argue the McLaren owner experience is much nicer because you don't have to deal with the peculiarities of obtaining and servicing Ferrari. That's for purchasing a new car.

For the used car buyer, the relative advantage to McLaren is even stronger, because the car's already depreciated like crazy, and racking up miles yourself won't really drive the price down that much more.

Then again, some people really like telling other people that they own a Ferrari. I think some value that even more than actually driving the car, just judging by how little they drive them.
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post #4 of 31 Old 02-04-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron5 View Post
Although the prices are still high, the relatively high 675LT supply is surprising me. Got some speculators cold feet?
There was a very specific issue with the 675LT, after McLaren Automotive kind-of forgot to mention that the limited edition of "500 only" cars was actually going to be more than 1000. If they had stuck to 500, prices today would be considerably higher.
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post #5 of 31 Old 02-04-2017, 04:26 PM
 
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Don't forget to compare mileage. If the average 458 has much lower miles, then it's not a very accurate comparison.
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post #6 of 31 Old 02-04-2017, 07:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
There was a very specific issue with the 675LT, after McLaren Automotive kind-of forgot to mention that the limited edition of "500 only" cars was actually going to be more than 1000. If they had stuck to 500, prices today would be considerably higher.
That is disgraceful. I am becoming a bit disillusioned with McLaren. Are they a take your money and run company?


No doubt I will find out in due course.
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post #7 of 31 Old 02-04-2017, 08:18 PM
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That is disgraceful. I am becoming a bit disillusioned with McLaren. Are they a take your money and run company?


No doubt I will find out in due course.
There are a couple of lengthy, detailed threads about the incident (and related incidents) here on this site. You might want to read them and draw your own conclusions.
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post #8 of 31 Old 02-04-2017, 08:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
There are a couple of lengthy, detailed threads about the incident (and related incidents) here on this site. You might want to read them and draw your own conclusions.
Thanks I will.

Any links, save me trawling through?
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post #9 of 31 Old 02-04-2017, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by R8Man View Post
Thanks I will.

Any links, save me trawling through?
In this order:

McLaren 675LT Spider reportedly coming next year

Now there's 1025 675LTs

675 LT prices
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post #10 of 31 Old 02-05-2017, 08:03 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noone2 View Post
Don't forget to compare mileage. If the average 458 has much lower miles, then it's not a very accurate comparison.
I agree noone2, mileage, surely important for the purchase decision and the requested car price, therefore I've pulled out a few comparisons.

The cheapest 458 compared with the cheapest 12C
FERRARI 458 Italia 4.5 V8, CHF 126'900.-, 59'374 km, 06.2010
McLAREN MP4-12C Coupé 3.8 V8 SSG, CHF 129'900.- 32'100 km, 08.2011

From the lower third:
FERRARI 458 Italia 4.5 V8, CHF 149'458.- 36'000 km, 06.2011
McLAREN MP4-12C Coupé 3.8 V8 SSG, CHF 148'500.- 28'900 km, 02.2013

Comparison to the most expensive 12C
McLAREN 12C MP4-12 C Spider, CHF 189'000.- 4'600 km, 08.2014
FERRARI 458 Spider Italia 4.5 V8, CHF 189'900.- 37'950 km, 08.2014
(I mention, a new 12C Coupe is still available for CHF 189'800.- 55 km)

The details of the four 650S are:
McLAREN 650S Coupé 3.8 V8 SSG, CHF 189'900.- 12'300 km, 10.2014
McLAREN 650S Spider 3.8 V8 SSG, CHF 199'000.- 25'500 km, 04.2014
McLAREN 650S Spider 3.8 V8 SSG, CHF 199'000.- 18'000 km, 06.2014
McLAREN 650S Coupé 3.8 V8 SSG, CHF 259'900.- 150 km, new

In this price range you will find approx. 34 Ferrari 458 in different conditions. I take the three most expensive ones:
FERRARI 458 Spider Italia 4.5 V8, CHF 260'000.- 14'000 km, 09.2012
FERRARI 458 Spider Italia 4.5 V8, CHF 259'500.- 8'900 km, 10.2014
FERRARI 458 Spider Italia 4.5 V8, CHF 255'000.- 999 km, 11.2015

In sum, I see no clear differences, except for the fact that I have a much larger selection on the Ferrari side. Whether this is good or bad, I don't know. But I am assuming that the 488GTB will press now massively on the prices of the 458.

What will happen with the P14 (And with all the announced novelties for the coming years), we will see.
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post #11 of 31 Old 02-05-2017, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
There was a very specific issue with the 675LT, after McLaren Automotive kind-of forgot to mention that the limited edition of "500 only" cars was actually going to be more than 1000. If they had stuck to 500, prices today would be considerably higher.
I would have liked to buy a 675LT Coupe, but that was unfortunately not possible, at this time all cars sold out. Therefor I have my dream 650S specified and bought, I'm happy.

But if I now see how these cars already come to the used car market I am already a little annoyed. Now buy one? Definitely not. I have never seen one like I had ordered it.
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post #12 of 31 Old 02-05-2017, 01:46 PM
 
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Swiss market has always worked a little different and you have to look at multiple markets to get an idea. For instance, in the UK, Pistonheads is a good website to use to compare the market. Cheapest RHD 458 is a 2010 at £137k with 30k miles. Cheapest RHD 12C is a 2011 at £115k with 15k miles. Both from independents. 98 available 458s, 21 available 12C plus 4 650 (all coupe).

I don't think the view that Ferrari keeps its value better is difficult to support as a general rule. That can always change, of course. A simple matter of demand and supply.
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post #13 of 31 Old 02-05-2017, 02:11 PM
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Iron5, (quote function not working for your post on price comparison)

You see no differences? To my eye, the difference is that, for the same approximate price, the Ferrari one would be buying has a lot more mileage than the comparable McLaren. Considering the penalty that normally comes with greater mileage on "supercars", plus Ferrari's reputation for building perhaps not the most robust cars on the planet, I think that makes a clear difference in aftermarket prices when adjusted to like-for-like.
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post #14 of 31 Old 02-05-2017, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by New Britain View Post
Iron5, (quote function not working for your post on price comparison)

You see no differences? To my eye, the difference is that, for the same approximate price, the Ferrari one would be buying has a lot more mileage than the comparable McLaren. Considering the penalty that normally comes with greater mileage on "supercars", plus Ferrari's reputation for building perhaps not the most robust cars on the planet, I think that makes a clear difference in aftermarket prices when adjusted to like-for-like.
...what on the other hand would underline the thesis that the McLaren has a higher depreciation. Right? A Ferrari with more miles on the clock is not cheaper than a basically comparable McLaren with less mileage.

Therefor, after studying all offers I came to the conclusion "in sum, I see no clear differences". Considered over all offers the differences cancel each other out.

My summary: I'm not able to reproduce the so often made statement "the McLaren depreciation is terrible".
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post #15 of 31 Old 02-05-2017, 03:02 PM
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...what on the other hand would underline the thesis that the McLaren has a higher depreciation. Right? A Ferrari with more miles on the clock is not cheaper than a basically comparable McLaren with less mileage.

Therefor, after studying all offers I came to the conclusion "in sum, I see no clear differences". Considered over all offers the differences cancel each other out.

My summary: I'm not able to reproduce the so often made statement "the McLaren depreciation is terrible".
Wouldn't the corollary be that a Ferrari with the same miles on the clock would be more expensive than a comparable McLaren (12C or 650S), and therefore the McLarens have suffered more depreciation than the Ferraris?
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