Presidential Election - Page 11 - McLaren Life
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post #151 of 221 Old 12-14-2016, 10:48 PM
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It’s difficult to shed the lifelong indoctrination of the state’s role in a peaceful and civilized society but any voluntary interaction that you have that doesn’t involve government, whether it’s buying a double-double at IN-N-Out or a McLaren from someone on Craig’s List, it should give you reassurance that we’d be better off without the state. They only serve to make the transactions more expensive and cumbersome.
Hey John I really liked your post, but aren't you still interacting with government, albeit indirectly, in both of the scenarios you mention above? i.e. In-N-Out needs some regulation, else they might put some illegal, addictive chemical in their burgers? Likewise, if I didn't have the fear of the state putting me in jail, when you showed up at my house to look at my McLaren for sale, I'd beat you up, take your money and lock you in a shed? (that's a joke mr. NSA filter guy, please don't tap my phone now)
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post #152 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 12:43 AM Thread Starter
 
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Wow you guys kept this thread going. Maybe a political forum can be set up but it's usually a pain with various egos and ideas. I know most sites prohibit it. Well anyway I did receive various invitations for the inaugural events, but not sure if I'll be back on time from holiday. If my girls want to attend we'll go and say goodbye to the Obama children.


There's an interesting trend that I've noticed over the last eight years and not sure if trend is the correct word. I was speaking with some officials in the federal reserve and it seems that more people in the "money occupations" are buying secondary homes that are self sustaining properties and completely off of the grid. Not all are located in the US either. I've noticed this increasing since the last round of bailouts. Not only self sustaining properties but also well armed for protection. Wish I had the time to delve into it further. Also very interesting how the use of cash is constantly being reduced by our financial institutions. One day you may go to your ATM and not be able to withdraw your own money. Events start off small and have a domino effect I find most often.


Well enjoy the holidays I won't boar you about banking family history.




BC


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post #153 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 03:45 AM
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Hey John I really liked your post, but aren't you still interacting with government, albeit indirectly, in both of the scenarios you mention above? i.e. In-N-Out needs some regulation, else they might put some illegal, addictive chemical in their burgers? Likewise, if I didn't have the fear of the state putting me in jail, when you showed up at my house to look at my McLaren for sale, I'd beat you up, take your money and lock you in a shed? (that's a joke mr. NSA filter guy, please don't tap my phone now)
Your indoctrination runs deep my friend They just might have sapped all of your creativity in regards to these matters, ha! Of course, it's nearly impossible to completely remove the state from your life AND be a part of today's society but that doesn't mean what you mention necessarily requires the government's involvement. I think the problems you have presented have wonderful free market solutions that are superior to the state's.

If in this fictitious and regulation free world that I imagine, you start a successful fast food chain but for some reason your customers seem to think you're drugging them with a substance that makes them addicted to your burgers and fries, they may stop buying your food (assuming they don't want to be addicted to it) which will cause you to lose business and thus motivate you to contract my services as an independent health inspector and gain my company's seal of approval as being a restaurant that does not lace its food with addictive substances. A third party accreditation service is a great solution for this issue.

As far as the beat me over the head and steal all my stuff scenario goes, I call BS. The fear of going to prison is not what prevents you and most other people from committing crimes. They don't commit those crimes because they know it's wrong and don't want to risk the consequences which in all likelihood would involve getting shot. However, I'll indulge in this exercise as I know there are some bad apples out there and may attempt to steal my stuff.

May I suggest private security as a solution. Let's say I live in a decent neighborhood and with all this money my neighbors and I have from not paying the gangsters in Washington and state capitols, we agree to contract with a private security firm to watch over our residences. Visitors must check-in at the gate and be on the list, same goes for these guests' exit. They may or may not be armed but are effective at keeping undesirables out and making sure everything is on the up and up. (This is actually happening in certain parts of Detroit where the police will not go and crime has dropped significantly).

But even if the thieves come in guns a blazing and I decide to not contend with them and they, in fact, steal my McLaren, then that sucks but I have insurance and will file a claim with them to recover my losses.

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post #154 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 05:48 PM
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If in this fictitious and regulation free world that I imagine, you start a successful fast food chain but for some reason your customers seem to think you're drugging them with a substance that makes them addicted to your burgers and fries, they may stop buying your food (assuming they don't want to be addicted to it) which will cause you to lose business and thus motivate you to contract my services as an independent health inspector and gain my company's seal of approval as being a restaurant that does not lace its food with addictive substances. A third party accreditation service is a great solution for this issue.
In whatever form you label it, in order for a society of this form to work, it requires that people act rationally in their own best self interest. Humans are far from rational, and often do not act in their own self interest.
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post #155 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 07:47 PM
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John, an independent health inspector? Talk about a business set up to be bribed and corrupted, if there ever was one!!
There would also have to be an independent, independent health inspector to monitor the independent health inspectors. Look at sites like Yelp, they clearly can't maintain independence (even if they tried).
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post #156 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 07:50 PM
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p.s. some things, like cigarettes, are so addictive and/or people DON'T WANT to stop using them, despite being detrimental to health. Should we not try to protect our citizens from those vices? Or is part of a pure capitalist society one that all allows (encourages?) the weak-minded to kill themselves off...
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post #157 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 09:00 PM
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In whatever form you label it, in order for a society of this form to work, it requires that people act rationally in their own best self interest. Humans are far from rational, and often do not act in their own self interest.


I think you'll find that an honest analysis of people's decision making will reveal that the vast majority are indeed self interested


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post #158 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 09:43 PM
 
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The deep thoughts re classic liberalism are good but boil down to whether or not you believe people are too dumb and the government knows better.

The market votes with its money, especially in this day and age of the internet and 24hr news coverage.

The public didn't need the FDA to tell them that Chipotle was giving everybody the runs. The news reported it, the market responded and Chipotle had to make some big choices to stay in business. FDA, CDC just wrote some reports.
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post #159 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 09:58 PM
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p.s. some things, like cigarettes, are so addictive and/or people DON'T WANT to stop using them, despite being detrimental to health. Should we not try to protect our citizens from those vices? Or is part of a pure capitalist society one that all allows (encourages?) the weak-minded to kill themselves off...

Why would someone want to stop someone else from doing something that they want to do and doesn't hurt anyone else? It's their body, they can do as they wish, even if it means hurting themselves.

Coca cola, cheetos, GMO's and a whole bunch of other things are detrimental to people's health. Should we mandate that people not indulge in those things simply because we say they're unhealthy?

Some people don't take health into consideration when making decisions, some do but it's not a requirement. The buzz or sweet taste or whatever is something they're willing to indulge in and if future health is the price, they're happy to pay it


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post #160 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 10:03 PM
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I think you'll find that an honest analysis of people's decision making will reveal that the vast majority are indeed self interested


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Self interested, yes. Rationally acting in their own best self interest? No.
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post #161 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 10:13 PM
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Self interested, yes. Rationally acting in their own best self interest? No.

What do you see as the difference?


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post #162 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 10:15 PM
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The market votes with its money, especially in this day and age of the internet and 24hr news coverage.

The public didn't need the FDA to tell them that Chipotle was giving everybody the runs. The news reported it, the market responded and Chipotle had to make some big choices to stay in business. FDA, CDC just wrote some reports.
24 hour fake news now

Who knows what is true anymore
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post #163 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 10:43 PM
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Why would someone want to stop someone else from doing something that they want to do and doesn't hurt anyone else? It's their body, they can do as they wish, even if it means hurting themselves.

Coca cola, cheetos, GMO's and a whole bunch of other things are detrimental to people's health. Should we mandate that people not indulge in those things simply because we say they're unhealthy?

Some people don't take health into consideration when making decisions, some do but it's not a requirement. The buzz or sweet taste or whatever is something they're willing to indulge in and if future health is the price, they're happy to pay it


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except smoking DOES affect others; not even just the health aspect of 1st and 2nd-hand smoke, but add to that the amount of litter, the amounts of carbon monoxide in a household, the increased likelihood of home fire, etc. Expanding health care costs d/t people's poor judgement gets passed on to healthier people, with those with no insurance/leaving against medical advice/"frequent flyers"all end up passing on that cost. That can directly and indirectly affect other people's wallets. I'd argue some people would be more upset about losing money than they would losing a toe to diabetes.

Bloomberg regulated soda sizes in NY, california raised the minimum smoking age, hawaii has more of a single-payer system for healthcare...the point is there are options that tend to work. sure, if someone wants their "fix," they will find a way to cheat the system, but if you can push to make smarter decisions become the norm, that "payment" would be a lot less.

And to add to Craigy's comment, i personally do think "people" are too dumb. Individuals are smart, mob mentality is retarded. In the same vein of why we have lobbyists, I feel (unfortunately) that the gov't does have a role in helping people not kill themselves. Same time, id be happy to have a lot less people on the road, haha
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post #164 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 10:47 PM
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What do you see as the difference?
Self interest is choosing the cheapest price for a commodity you want to purchase.

Rationally acting in your own best self interest is realizing that allowing a monopoly to develop will cost more in the long run, and paying a few dollars extra to make sure that the market has choices/competition actually saves you money.

Self interest is taking out a payday loan to make sure the water bill is paid.

Rationally acting in your own best self interest is realizing that you'll lose the house due to the domino effect of that payday loan, and making due for a few weeks or asking for a raise at work.
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post #165 of 221 Old 12-15-2016, 10:55 PM
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John, an independent health inspector? Talk about a business set up to be bribed and corrupted, if there ever was one!!
There would also have to be an independent, independent health inspector to monitor the independent health inspectors. Look at sites like Yelp, they clearly can't maintain independence (even if they tried).


LOL, just like the government, right? No corruption or bribes there...


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