650S ECU Tuning Information - McLaren Life
 30Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 51 Old 10-17-2016, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
 
crystal_imprezav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 37
Garage
Lightbulb 650S ECU Tuning Information

Greetings all. I just got my 2015 650S Coupe about a month ago and its been an absolute blast. I have a pretty decent background in tuning and reverse engineering so I figured I would share some of the info I have discovered so far for the McLaren 650S ECU strategy. This may or may not get real technical depending on others questions and contributions. I am working with another forum member to hopefully bring an OBD2 flashing solution to the table some day but we are both messing with it in our spare time. Feel free to ask questions and I may or may not be able to answer them depending on how far I am in my mapping. Would be nice to see some other tuners participate in this thread but I doubt they will since they are charging big $$$ for tunes.

Basic Technical Info:
ECU is a Bosch ME17.8.3.2 Motronics unit with a separate PCCU that controls the TCU, Suspension, Air Brake, and etc.
Processor is an Infineon Tricore TC1797 with 4MB of flash memory and TPROT (tuning protection) which is why the OBD2 solution is no currently available.
Most everything is computed off driver demand tables which is typical for a MED17 ecu strategy

Stock Rev Limiter is set to 8300 RPM's:


Stock Launch Control is set to 3200 RPM's:


Stock Boost is set to around 16.6 psi - 18.8 psi depending on settings:


Stock Speed Limiter is set to 203.6 MPH:


Stock Torque Map:


Stock Fuel Map (pretty rich):


Stock Timing Map (w/o knock correction):
Rarity, jmc5, smokeygt and 5 others like this.
crystal_imprezav is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 51 Old 10-18-2016, 03:19 AM
Sponsors
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 112
1 - Congrats on purchasing your 650S

2 - Welcome to the forum

3 - You're standards for supercars will forever be ruined since you are now in a McLaren (nothing like it)

4 - Port flashing is nice and its there

5 - Interesting that your first post is about tuning and showing the generic targets to every commercial tuner on the market

6 - Using a $300 black market damos to tune a McLaren is not wise.... tic toc, tic toc, boom

7 - Using a $300 black market damos to tune a McLaren when clearly it's not defined properly is really scary

8 - Using WinOLS to tune an MED17 series ECM is just as not wise (shows experience level). These aren't subaru's that you are dabbling in

9 - Courtesy tip....there are more than 3 power targets. Your a just a "few" shy

10 - Welcome again
Thad@HCD is online now  
post #3 of 51 Old 10-18-2016, 10:21 AM
Owner
 
lolachampcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: WPB, FL
Posts: 685
and there is absolutely nothing special about Mcs over any other high performance ME17.8 application (thinking BMW here).

"Tuners" will always tell you there is super secret sauce and that amateurs should not venture within five miles of the BDM port.

OLS' BDM tool is not $300 and did you ever notice the Bosch logo on the EVC site? It seems EVC is a Bosch company. Talk about keeping your enemies close.

I always tell "Tuners"-
(1) Explain all your edits or its not going on my car and
(2) I will read back your edits, define the maps and verify what you have told me.

This inevitably leads to them not wanting to do business with me because I'm asking for their proprietary information. I have no problem with NDAs and have no interest in passing along any hard earned knowledge they may have learned in their efforts. This does not seem to matter nor does it matter than anyone with the proper equipment could pull the modified calibration data back off the ECU and define the edits. More often than not, the "Tuner" is reselling files obtained somewhere or from someone else. The very rare occurrence is finding someone (and it is normally just one person in an organization) that truly understands a particular ECUs modeling and calibration approach sufficiently to properly edit the calibration. In my experience, these people are open to explaining their edits provided the information goes no further than the customer.

Lastly-
It is important to remember that 99.9% of the information in the tuner world is based on theft. It is incredibly hard to pull the calibration section of an ECU, define the maps then start taking shots in the dark to find out which maps are active and will impact meaningful operational realms. It is orders of magnitude harder to pop the full read into IDA, decompile and document the code so you can see what is actually happening. Most of the work out there starts with OEM DAMOS or A2L files which are automatically generated when the manufacturer compiles the particular version of firmware in question. These files carry all the definitions for variables, maps and the like for that version of firmware. Manufacturers closely guard this information thus any that makes it out in the wild and into tuner's hands has been stolen. In addition, most edited calibration data or tunes that I have seen are a collection of many different people's efforts. Once one tuner learns something and ships it, every other tuner reads it back out and adds it to their toolbox of tricks.

Given that almost all the information related to tuning is based on theft, I am always amazed at how violently tuners respond when someone reads one of their files off an ECU. It is almost comical.

The above said, their are good people out there doing excellent work. I've just found that they are few and very far between. I guess the same could be said for almost anything in life.
lolachampcar is online now  
 
post #4 of 51 Old 10-18-2016, 02:42 PM
Sponsors
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolachampcar View Post
It is important to remember that 99.9% of the information in the tuner world is based on theft
You couldn't be more right! I can't say I don't agree with your post. That same percentage spend more time on trying to find out what the other guy did rather than spend their efforts studying the function sheet to learn the ladder logic, the hierarchy of controls, and how to properly program in code. This ultimately led to our security efforts on ecu's.
Thad@HCD is online now  
post #5 of 51 Old 10-18-2016, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
 
crystal_imprezav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 37
Garage
2- Thanks
3- So true
4 - I dont believe there is an ODB2 port flashing solution unless you are removing the tprot via BSL first
5- That was the intent to show generic maps to start off the conversation
6 - Not using a $300 black market damos, using WinOls and IDA to come up with the proper map locations and properties
7 - Same as 6
8 - Using map3d cloud, raceevo, or ECM is slightly more risky IMO as there is no way to check there logic. WinOls does a better job with checksums as well. Ive used many tools to tune MED17 ecu's including Winols, HPTuners, SCT, Cobb, and some custom written software as well.
9- Yea I know, this post was meant to be basic and get more detailed as I get into it more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad@HCD View Post
1 - Congrats on purchasing your 650S

2 - Welcome to the forum

3 - You're standards for supercars will forever be ruined since you are now in a McLaren (nothing like it)

4 - Port flashing is nice and its there

5 - Interesting that your first post is about tuning and showing the generic targets to every commercial tuner on the market

6 - Using a $300 black market damos to tune a McLaren is not wise.... tic toc, tic toc, boom

7 - Using a $300 black market damos to tune a McLaren when clearly it's not defined properly is really scary

8 - Using WinOLS to tune an MED17 series ECM is just as not wise (shows experience level). These aren't subaru's that you are dabbling in

9 - Courtesy tip....there are more than 3 power targets. Your a just a "few" shy

10 - Welcome again
crystal_imprezav is offline  
post #6 of 51 Old 01-05-2017, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
 
crystal_imprezav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 37
Garage
Ok so after a lot of coding, research, datalogs, testing, and more testing, I have validated the 650S can provide just as much gains as the MP4's with tuning on the stock ECU. Coming from an actual owner that daily drives their car, I can assure you, this is even a very conservative tune as I am limited to crappy 91 octane from CA. Ill get into more detail a little bit later but here is the basic specs of the tune and a baseline and tuned dyno I completed last night done on the same day and a few hours apart (in order to pull the ecu and reflash then reinstall). I will be testing and dynoing after this, a set of VelocityAP catted downpipes, and then a Fabspeed sport-x exhaust as well.

Stock Boost: 14-15psi tapering to 13psi at redline
Tuned Boost: 18-19psi tapering to 13psi at redline (will be logging back pressure soon to see if this is a turbo restriction, downpipe restriction, or boost controller restriction that is limiting the available boost at the top of the RPM range)

Timing: Lots of smoothing out and optimizing cruise and midrange timing. At full load, I have actually reduced timing between 2-6 degrees dependent of RPM as stock timing produces knock. As you can see that by tuning for MBT which happens to be less than stock, I was able to still pick up giant gains and lots of area under the curve. This is not all due to boost as you can see around 6000rpm's the car is basically back to stock boost levels.

Fuel: Stock mapping runs way too lean at peak torque and way too rich up top. Getting the car to run a consistent safe AFR I am sure contributed in a big way to the amount of boost and timing the car is able to take and make huge gains.

Knock Settings: Stock is fairly well safeguarded. However, in the interest of even more safety I have tuned the knock maps to be more sensitive to ensure safety.

Speed Limiters: In all active settings, the limiter is already maxed out so no need to do anything there. In Winter mode there is a lower limiter which I left in place. There is also a secret limiter for the VALET MODE! No more worries about valets or others trying to take a joy ride. I set this limiter to 25mph and it works perfect. Punch you PIN in on the dash and your all set until you remove valet mode. Stock, this limiter is set to the max value. I have no idea why they built this feature into the code and did not take advantage of it.

Rev Limiters: Depending on what mode you are in a what gear, stock limiters kick in anywhere from 7000rpms to 8100-8300rpms. I raised mine slightly to the advertised stock limit of 8500. Not much need for this since there is not much power up there.

Launch Settings: Optimizing these are of great value. Raising the RPM slightly to get into boost immediately and reducing the slope of power/torque onset optimizes the power and traction to get off the line. With this I can get off the line with minimal wheel spin and ESC making for better 60' times. Will be testing out drag radials later this year and these settings will maximize the traction, should be very exciting.

Fan Settings: As everyone knows, these cars heat soak like pigs. Hypercar is very right on this topic. I will be doing some cooling system upgrades but in the mean time, I have adjusted fan settings to turn on sooner and spin faster to help things out. With the intercoolers sitting right on top of the turbos and downpipes, I will be wrapping them and then reinstalling stock heat sheilds on the new VelocityAP downpipes that I will be installing soon. I am undecided currently whether or not to fab custom blankets for the intercoolers as this is a plus and minus. While it helps reflect the radiant heat it also will trap heat in. I will likely use NASA style gold foil tape to help reflect the radiant heat off the intercoolers but am skeptical on how much it will actually do.

crystal_imprezav is offline  
post #7 of 51 Old 01-05-2017, 09:21 PM
Owner
 
renaissance.man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 267
@crystal_imprezav - Congrats! Really impressive. I can appreciate the informative post. What cooling upgrades are you considering? As it currently stands, we do not have many (or any) options on the market.
renaissance.man is offline  
post #8 of 51 Old 01-06-2017, 12:24 AM
kpg
 
kpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 223
Wow man.. great info... those are MASSIVE gains.

2016 570S
2002 Pontiac Aztek
1970 AMC Gremlin
2014 Vespa GTS 300 moped
Rollerblades
kpg is offline  
post #9 of 51 Old 01-06-2017, 12:53 AM
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 925
All by OBD port?

Edit: I see you are pulling the ecu for each modification.

Last edited by MP4Dream; 01-06-2017 at 01:30 AM.
MP4Dream is online now  
post #10 of 51 Old 01-06-2017, 06:02 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 248
good stuff!!! thanks for sharing!

couldn't help noticing that this changes the power delivery dramatically and am curious how-- if any-- it changes the character of the car.

stock you get much less power but you have an incentive to stay on it until redline, as the HP just keeps going up.

tuned, you have much more power but it tapers off dramatically after 6k, at least relative to stock.

so there's less reason to rev the motor out.

of course without having driven the car, i risk simply talking out of my a**, but i would probably give up some raw power gains to still enjoy the sensation of riding a (somewhat) cresting wave of power all the way to, or close to redline.

please understand this is in no way a criticism, just an observation and am curious to hear your thoughts on the driving experience, and looking forward to more posts about this. as i said, this is awesome information and thank you for taking the time to educate keyboard warriors like myself

Last edited by hesperus; 01-06-2017 at 06:26 AM.
hesperus is offline  
post #11 of 51 Old 01-06-2017, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
 
crystal_imprezav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 37
Garage
You dont feel the power drop up top trust me the car is just insanely fast. The taper in power is due to the inabiity of the turbos to hold boost. Its either a back pressure issue, boost controller issue, or the turbos are simply too small. I am going to guess that they are simply too small for the efficiency of the engine at these higher power levels, very common for OEM's. While it does taper, its also 50-60whp more than stock still.
RonMathMD and hesperus like this.
crystal_imprezav is offline  
post #12 of 51 Old 01-06-2017, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
 
crystal_imprezav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 37
Garage
For reference the numbers are lower than most dynojets as you can tell from the stock baseline since we ran the car on a 4WD dyno and therefore the car has to spin two rollers in lieu of one. I know some others dyno in just RWD and therefore their baselines look higher. Regardless its not about the numbers its about the gains. Below I have added a baseline that they did on an MP4 a while back.

Tuxiemama and hesperus like this.
crystal_imprezav is offline  
post #13 of 51 Old 01-06-2017, 07:51 PM
InnerCircle
 
Tuxiemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London and NY
Posts: 476
Garage
My next move is to do a cooling solution for my tuned car which pulls timing like crazy after a few hard runs ...... basic tuned power is 760-770 bhp at 50F according to vbox over many runs.... heat soak is a huge issue but expected in a small V8

I would be very interested in an E85 fueling solution.... kill 2 birds yada yada yada

McLaren 650 S - custom exhaust, modded turbos bench tune
Porsche Turbo S - RWD


64 not out forever
Tuxiemama is offline  
post #14 of 51 Old 01-06-2017, 10:28 PM Thread Starter
 
crystal_imprezav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 37
Garage
You should be able to run E85 easily with the stock ECU. Everything is there to do so. In the future ill work on some code to integrate a flex fuel sensor and automatically adjust timing, fuel, boost based on content but that will take some time to write and test. But if you were willing to run E85 full time or pull the ECU to reflash when you switch gas you could easily do it now. I would imagine it would just need some bigger or multiple fuel pumps and larger injectors. On the ECU side you can scale the injectors accordingly and turn everything up. Should make HUGE gains. My STi makes 1000awhp all day on pump e85.
Tuxiemama and hesperus like this.
crystal_imprezav is offline  
post #15 of 51 Old 01-07-2017, 11:52 AM
InnerCircle
 
Tuxiemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London and NY
Posts: 476
Garage
Thx, my tuner is an ex McLaren guy in the UK... I assume we will look at E85 tunes next then... in one of my cars I can get 85-87% ethanol content in summer tapering down in winter so we run the tune rich per E85 and it goes a bit lean at E70
str8blst likes this.

McLaren 650 S - custom exhaust, modded turbos bench tune
Porsche Turbo S - RWD


64 not out forever
Tuxiemama is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the McLaren Life forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome